The Truth About the Christian Canon

[Hoddie]

On Friday, December 30, 2016 at 8:00 AM, TheMatrixHasU71 said:

Sooooo....you would put men on an equal plane with God

Thats ridiculous....... Just as a stream can never be higher than it's source, a creation can never be greater than it's creator. Sheesh!

by saying that the Body of Christ, which has changed biblical doctrines by adopting pagan teachings and rituals,

It is obvious you have fallen prey for purveyors of fanciful "histories" by likes of Jack T. Chick, Dave Hunt, John MacArthur, John Ankerberg, and James McCarthy that claim to account for the origin and advance of Catholicism. As far as your false claim of adopting pagan rituals and teachings.... History does not agree with you. For example.....Augustine wrote the The City of God in 413-426 AD. Augustine answers the pagans, who attributed the fall of Rome (410) to the abolition of pagan worship. If pagans were angry that Catholicism abolished pagan worship it's hard to imagine that the Church adopted paganism.  History doesn't seem to be your friend Matrix.

So..... your feeble attempt to prove Catholicism "pagan" fail. Catholic doctrines are neither borrowed from the mystery religions nor introduced from pagans after the conversion of Constantine. For you to make a charge of paganism stick, you must be able to show more than a similarity between something in the Church and something in the non-Christian world. You must be able to demonstrate a legitimate connection between the two, showing clearly that one is a result of the other, and that there is something wrong with the non-Christian item. Something you (or anyone else for that matter) have failed at miserably. Sorry.

and murdered millions of people over the centuries for disagreeing with her, is infallible?

Sure you want to go there? How about I bring up the first Protestants, who tried to root out and punish those they regarded as heretics? Luther and Calvin both endorsed the right of the state to protect society by purging false religion. In fact, Calvin not only banished from Geneva those who did not share his views, he permitted and in some cases ordered others to be executed for "heresy" (e.g. Jacques Gouet, tortured and beheaded in 1547; and Michael Servetus, burned at the stake in 1553). In England and Ireland, Reformers engaged in their own ruthless inquisitions and executions. Conservative estimates indicate that thousands of English and Irish Catholics were put to death—many by being hanged, drawn, and quartered—for practicing the Catholic faith and refusing to become Protestant. An even greater number were forced to flee to the Continent for their safety. The fact remains Matrix, that your Protestant Reformers also created inquisitions to root out Catholics and others who did not fall into line with the doctrines of the local Protestant sect. In other words......People that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

ONLY GOD is infallible

Thats not what the bible say's. Christ instructed the Church to preach everything he taught (Matt. 28:19–20) and promised the protection of the Holy Spirit to "guide you into all the truth" (John 16:13). That mandate and that promise guarantee the Church will never fall away from his teachings (Matt. 16:18, 1 Tim. 3:15). As Christians began to more clearly understand the teaching authority of the Church and of the primacy of the pope, they developed a clearer understanding of the pope’s infallibility. This development of the faithful’s understanding has its clear beginnings in the early Church. For example, Cyprian of Carthage, writing about 256, put the question this way, "Would the heretics dare to come to the very seat of Peter whence apostolic faith is derived and whither no errors can come?" (Letters 59 [55], 14). In the fifth century, Augustine succinctly captured the ancient attitude when he remarked, "Rome has spoken; the case is concluded" (Sermons 131, 10).

Peace

[Hoddie]

On Friday, December 30, 2016 at 7:52 AM, TheMatrixHasU71 said:

You haven't "corrected" me on anything. My facts are straight as to why these books aren't in the bible, and why the Holy Ghost allowed only a few quotes from them.

Lol!  Your facts?  You mean Carm.org and Matt Slick's anti-Catholic fallible facts don't you?

[Hoddie]

On Friday, December 30, 2016 at 7:53 AM, woundeddog said:

get over it Hoddie- we all have said in one way or the other that we believe God has preserved his word. and that's where the 66 books came form--

You mean the original 72 books, before Martin Luther removed seven books because they didn't agree with his particular theology. These deuterocanonical books were accepted as Sacred Scripture until Luther removed them as he removed the letter of James for James II:24 "See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."(the only place in the bible outside, of Luther's personal version, that the term faith alone appears)

we really don't need to indulge in pseudo-intellectual debate as to where the Bible came from--

Hmmmm.... why does the image of an Ostrich come to mind?

If you want to believe what you believe it is your right, I think most folks here are tired of your same hackned reasoning for vetting the Validity of the Roman Catholic Church, but I do not think either you or Real Presents has convinced or converted one single true Christian in this forum---

Unlike most Protestant and non-Catholics within this forum, it is not my job to try and convert anyone to Catholicism. My job here is to correct the lies and mis-conceptions of Catholicism that many post. However, if showing the truth and beauty of the church Jesus Christ founded, The Holy Catholic Church brings one person to to her, all the better.

maybe your time would be better spent on the 7-day Adventist site--- just saying, have a nice day and a good new year!

And miss all the fun debunking the lies that are being strewn about like candy to kids at the Rose Bowl Parade? You'd like that wouldn't you. Sorry.... no can do!

A Happy and Blessed New Year to you aswell woundeddog!

Peace be with you

[woundeddog]

35 minutes ago, Hoddie said:

job here is to correct the lies and mis-conceptions of Catholicism that many post

hmmmm seems to be thats what Real Presents says too-- must just be a coincidence

[Hoddie]

On Friday, December 30, 2016 at 8:04 AM, TheMatrixHasU71 said:

I keep on telling Hoddie that men didn't compile the bible.....

And we keep telling you that the Bible did not drop down from Heaven ready-made, as you seem to imagine; it did not suddenly appear upon the earth, carried down from Almighty God by the hand of angel or seraph; but it was written by men like ourselves, who held in their hand pen (or reed) and ink and parchment, and laboriously traced every letter in the original languages of the East. They were divinely inspired certainly, as no others ever have been before or since; nevertheless they were human beings, men chosen by God for the work, making use of the human instruments that lay to their hand at the time.

Catholics will always put the church first, men first, on this matter and God second.

First off, claiming that the Catholic Church and her members put anything or anyone above God is a bald-face lie and I resent it! I would be very interested if the Moderators are going to let this insult against we Catholics and our faith go unchallenged, without any sort of repercussions. Steve_S?

Secondly, for the record, and as early Church history reveals, we Catholics beleive that the Bible is God’s Word. That the Bible is composed of 46 books that were written before the birth of Jesus Christ, and 27 books written since that time, as defined by the Council of Carthage in 397 A.D. to form the canon of Scripture. We also beleive (and history affirms) that the New Testament came after the Church; that the Church did not come after the New Testament.

That before a line of the New Testament was written:Christ established his Church; the Apostles preached Christ and Him crucified; St. Peter converted 3,000 Jews; the Council of Jerusalem assembled; the Jewish law was abrogated. That before the last Book of the New Testament was written the Catholic Church had celebrated her golden jubilee; the faith of Christ had been "proclaimed all over (the then known) world" (Rom. 1:8), and eleven of the twelve Apostles had died.

Early Church history also affirms that as late as the end of the second century, many churches, composed of believers in the doctrines of the Apostles, did not know of all the New Testament books. That is why St. Irenaeus, martyr, Father of the Church, disciple of St. John the Divine, could say,

"If the Apostles had not left us any writings, would it not have been our duty to be guided by the rule of that tradition which they delivered to those to whom they entrusted the churches? A rule asserted by many of the barbarous nations believing in Christ, who, not possessing any written language, have the words of salvation written without paper and ink, in the hearts by the Spirit, and carefully preserve the ancient doctrines delivered to them." (Adv. Heresies, lib. iii, c. 4.).

And that the authority for the inspiration, and interpretation, of the books in the Bible rests upon the living testimony of the maker of the Bible, Christ’s Church. The Holy Catholic Church!

But its GOD that gave us the canon, and God who DIRECTED men to choose the right books and reject the heretical ones.

Thats right! And who were these men? They surely couldn't have been Protestant since history shows that Protestantism didn't exsist until the 16th century. So you need to ask yourself Matrix, who were these men if they were not Protestant? The only conclusion can be that they were Catholic! Which brings up the topic of this thread.... The Canon! Again history proves the Canon recognized by the Catholic Church for the past fifteen plus centuries (73 books) was specified in the Council of Laodicea in 367 A.D., and was definitely adopted in the Council of Carthage in 397 A.D., after being sent to the Pope for confirmation.While some of the books ratified by the Council of Carthage had always been considered to be canonical, others had been disputed. Finally at this Council a union of minds was reached as to the canonicity of the whole 73 books and epistles.

History alsoshows in the 16^{th century Martin Luther greatly stirred the religious world, by dubbing as apocrypha certain books that were unquestioned for fifteen centuries. He declared the Epistle of St. James to be an "Epistle of straw"; threw "Esther" into the Elbe; called "Judith" a mere poem; "Tobias" a farce; and expressed regret that the "second Book of Machabees" was ever written. The Council of Trent (1546) therefore deemed it expedient to declare, ex-cathedra, that is by the infallible authority of the Church, that the list of books adopted at the Council of Carthage is the authoritative, the finally determined, collection of writings composed under Divine inspiration.}

^{Peace and a Blessed New Year to you Matrix.}





[Hoddie]

17 minutes ago, woundeddog said:

hmmmm seems to be thats what Real Presents says too-- must just be a coincidence

Lol!  Really man.....  going down that dusty ol' road again. I wasen't aware Real Presence has the sole rights to that phrase!  Lol!

[woundeddog]

4 minutes ago, Hoddie said:

going down that dusty ol' road again.

whats that old saying??? if it looks like a duck ,walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck??

[Hoddie]

On Friday, December 30, 2016 at 8:09 AM, woundeddog said:

OH matrix----- you have forgotten one very important  fact~~~~ Church Tradition says that they are infallible, and Hoddie has proven time and time agAin by many incredibly astute point that Tradition is equaL AND IN MANY CASES NEGATES ACTUAL SCRIPTURE. so there is no reason to not think that the RCC can do what ever it wants~~~~~~~ lol

Please show where I posted Sacred Tradiion "in Many cases negates actual Scripture"?  If you cannot, are you willing to admit this is a lie and apologize not only to me but the whole Worthy Christian forum?

[woundeddog]

1 hour ago, Hoddie said:

, it is not my job to try and convert anyone to Catholicism.

so if its not your job to convert- and you know most likely you will not-- why waste your time???  just enjoy arguing??

[Hoddie]

6 minutes ago, woundeddog said:

whats that old saying??? if it looks like a duck ,walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck??

Lol! Dude... you are too paranoid.  Besides, even if RealPresence and I were one in the same (which we are not!) what concern would that be of yours anyhoo?    Woundddog.... you crack me up sometimes!   Lol!  

Peace