Who is this Jewish Messiah?

[Zach]

11 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

John 3:16-17  John 12:32

John 3:16-17
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His [fn]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him."

*Clearly it is God who is doing the saving through His Son.

John 12:32
“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

*Again it is God who exalts Yeshua. Yeshua is not saying he will lift himself up and be Saviour, rather he allows the Father to do it through him.

 

 

 

 

[Guest shiloh357]

1 minute ago, Zach said:

John 3:16-17
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His [fn]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him."

*Clearly it is God who is doing the saving through His Son.

John 12:32
“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

*Again it is God who exalts Yeshua. Yeshua is not saying he will lift himself up and be Saviour, rather he allows the Father to do it through him.

 

 

 

 

Yes, but He sent Jesus to be the Savior.  It's both/and, not either/or.   The Bible clearly presents Jesus as the Savior of the world  I John 2:2 and 4:14 both present Jesus as a universal Savior, in addition to Jesus' own testimony as a universal savior.

You can try to twist and contort the Scriptures all you want, but Jesus is our Savior and there is nothing you can say to change that.

[Zach]

3 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

You can try to twist and contort the Scriptures all you want, but Jesus is our Savior and there is nothing you can say to change that.

    
Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am Jehovah; and besides me there is no saviour.

Isaiah 45:21
Declare ye, and bring it forth; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath showed this from ancient time? who hath declared it of old? have not I, Jehovah? and there is no God else besides me, a just God and a Saviour; there is none besides me.

Isaiah 49:26
And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I, Jehovah, am thy Saviour, and thy Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.

 Hosea 13:4
Yet I am Jehovah thy God from the land of Egypt; and thou shalt know no god but me, and besides me there is no saviour.

 1John 4:14
And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father hath sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

 

With all due respect, you can't give me even one Scripture where Yeshua declares himself "Savior". Yet I've given you a handful of verses of God claiming there is no Saviour but himself. Yeshua was indeed an agent of salvation by allowing God to work through him and therefore was viewed by others as a Saviour, but it's meaningful you don't hear it from Yeshua. Why do you think that is?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest shiloh357]

2 minutes ago, Zach said:

    
Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am Jehovah; and besides me there is no saviour.

Isaiah 45:21
Declare ye, and bring it forth; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath showed this from ancient time? who hath declared it of old? have not I, Jehovah? and there is no God else besides me, a just God and a Saviour; there is none besides me.

Isaiah 49:26
And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I, Jehovah, am thy Saviour, and thy Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.

 Hosea 13:4
Yet I am Jehovah thy God from the land of Egypt; and thou shalt know no god but me, and besides me there is no saviour.

 1John 4:14
And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father hath sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

The verses in the OT apply to Jesus as much as they apply God the Father because Jesus is as much God as the Father is.  They're both God.   So when the Bible presents God as the only Savior, that's Jesus and the Father.

Jesus and the Father worked together for our salvation.  That God the Father is our Savior, doesn't negate that Jesus is our Savior.   You are trying to create a problem that doesn't exist in the Bible.  

Jesus is our Creator, our Righteous Redeemer/Savior and our Eternal Judge.   So again, you are really not going to convince anyone that Jesus isn't the Savior of the world.  He said He was and I proved it, even though you tried to skirt around Jesus plain statement that He is our Savior.

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With all due respect, you can't give me even one Scripture where Yeshua declares himself "Savior". Yet I've given you a handful of verses of God claiming there is no Saviour but himself. Yeshua was indeed an agent of salvation by allowing God to work through him and therefore was viewed by others as a Saviour, but it's meaningful you don't hear it from Yeshua. Why do you think that is?

I gave you two references where Jesus claimed to be the Savior of the world.   You tried to twist the word of God to subvert Jesus' words.   Yes, God claimed that there is no Savior but Him.   But Jesus is God.   

Jesus was not "an agent of salvation"  Jesus is the ONLY agent of salvation. 

Jesus claimed to be the Savior and so we do hear it from him.  You're just trying to monkey around with the Bible to promote false teaching and a false gospel.

[Zach]

5 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Jesus claimed to be the Savior and so we do hear it from him.  You're just trying to monkey around with the Bible to promote false teaching and a false gospel.

With all due respect, I asked you for a verse where Yeshua directly declares he is the Saviour. Rather you gave me two verses where God is doing the saving through Yeshua. In addition I supplied a number of verses where God himself declares there is no Saviour but himself. I don't see that as monkeying around with the Bible. 

I contend others have 'monkeyed' around with doctrine a long time ago by which the plain meaning in the orignal cultural context is redefined to create a new overall system not taught by the very Torah affirmed by Yeshua. It's been taught for so long, most just nod and accept it as Biblical truth with very few questioning its Scriptual validity.

[Guest shiloh357]

36 minutes ago, Zach said:

With all due respect, I asked you for a verse where Yeshua directly declares he is the Saviour. Rather you gave me two verses where God is doing the saving through Yeshua.

Those were direct quotes of Yeshua saying that He was sent by the Father to be the Savior.   So it perfectly fits what you requested.   I am sorry that you felt the need to try to write Jesus out of those verses as not being the Savior.  The Bible, in many places states that Jesus is the Savior of the world and it states that God is the Savior.    Jesus is God, God is our Savior, so Jesus is our Savior.  It is really that simple.

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In addition I supplied a number of verses where God himself declares there is no Saviour but himself. I don't see that as monkeying around with the Bible. 

You were monkeying around with the Bible by trying to deny the role of Jesus as Savior.   Jesus is God, God is our Savior and thus Jesus is our Savior.    You tried to separate Jesus from God as if God is one person and Jesus is someone else.   Jesus is God.

 

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I contend others have 'monkeyed' around with doctrine a long time ago by which the plain meaning in the orignal cultural context is redefined to create a new overall system not taught by the very Torah affirmed by Yeshua. It's been taught for so long, most just nod and accept it as Biblical truth with very few questioning its Scriptual validity.

Nonsense.  This has nothing to do with that.   You're denying Jesus as Savior and that has nothing to do with the cultural context.  You're simply denying a basic doctrine of Scripture.   If you reject Jesus as the Savior, that's between you and Him.   He is MY Savior even if He isn't yours

[Zach]

2 hours ago, Davida said:

Zach, I see you are intent to disregard what doesn't fit with your beliefs & opinion . All of the Bible is God's Word. Already know I'm done here.

Davida, with all do respect, I used believe like the majority here, probably much like you, but after years of studying I was left with no choice except to change my beliefs and opinions to match the plain meaning of Scripture written in its own cultural context. In other words I endeavored to understand the what orignal authors meanings. The meanings the majority, you and (I at one time) apply to Scripture are meanings foreign to the Bible and did not come into existence as a codified system of belief until 400 years after Yeshua. Worse yet they came into existence outside the culture the Bible was written in.

I realize your done, it was nice to meet you and leave you with the challenge to understand Scripture in the light of Yeshua's words in his culture leaving Paul 100% out of it. When you've mastered that, (it will take some time), then go back and read Paul. Just a suggestion.

If you'd care to admit it; your entire view of Scripture is based on a 400 year after the fact, Roman/Hellenized Gentile interpretation of Paul's writings (a man who never met or quoted Yeshua) rather than Yeshua himself. In other words you follow a religion about a Jesus rather than the religion of Jesus. So who do "really" you follow? Jesus or a reinvented Paul?

Just food for thought, Happy hunting down the truth!

 

Edited December 31, 2016 by Zach

[Zach]

11 minutes ago, Davida said:

Well, I WAS exposed to this same belief as you yrs ago and the Holy Spirit lead me to leave that Church that had a Reverend that believed what you believed  and wove it into his sermons. I began bringing my Bible and reading it & found that he was contradicting the Holy Spirit and left that Church.

If you don't mind me asking, what do you mean "contradicting the Holy Spirit".  With 33,000 differing Christian denominations this statement is rather subjective, don't you think? 

[Guest shiloh357]

27 minutes ago, Zach said:

If you don't mind me asking, what do you mean "contradicting the Holy Spirit".  With 33,000 differing Christian denominations this statement is rather subjective, don't you think? 

There are not 33,000 Christian denominations.  That is factually incorrect.

[Zach]

29 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

There are not 33,000 Christian denominations.  That is factually incorrect.

It's a ballpark number commonly used, the actual number is really meaningless, there's a lot! However if you feel an exact number has a meaning I'm missing, I'm open to correction and am anxious to see the "exact" number and hear why it is important.