Guest shiloh357 Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 2 hours ago, Zach said: Rev 2:14 [Jesus]‘But I have a few things against you, because you ........eat things sacrificed to idols....." Rev 2:20 [Jesus]‘But I have this against you, that you ........eat things sacrificed to idols. One of the problems I have with false teaching, is the usual practice of not quoting an entire verse or passage. It's typical false teaching. Here is what verses 14 and 20 really say: "'I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. Yet you hold fast my name, and you did not deny my faith even in the days of Antipas my faithful witness, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, so that they might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice sexual immorality. (Rev 2:13-14) "'I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first. But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality. (Rev 2:19-21) Your misquoted v. 14. It says that they held to the teaching of Balaam who taught Balak to to put a stumbling blocked before Israel causing Israel to sin and eat food sacrificed to idols. It implies that the teaching of the Nicolatians (v15) was akin to the teaching of Balaam and was leading the church of Pergamos back into idolatry, by teaching them to mix idoleatry and sexual immorality with their Christian faith. So the eating food sacrificed to idols is condemned because it was being done as a ceremonial act of worship. Paul's issue was the simple act of eating was not worship and so eating food sacrificed to idols was not a sin for those who could do it without it being a temptation or trigger to go back into idolatry. The same with verse 20. Here the was some mysterious female church leader who had led the congregation at Thyatira to fall back into pagan sexual immorality and idolatry and so the eating of food sacrificed to idols is also condemned as yet another intentional act of worship of false gods. So there is really no disagreement. You are confusing contexts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zach Posted January 1, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 227 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/18/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted January 1, 2017 9 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: One of the problems I have with false teaching, is the usual practice of not quoting an entire verse or passage. It's typical false teaching. Here is what verses 14 and 20 really say: Good grief, there is not some sinister plot a foot, I shortened up the verse so the issue we're discussing could easily be identified. I put all the little dots..... So you would know I shortened it and gave you the Scripture references to boot, and you have the gall to accuse me of intellectual dishonesty? This is as simple as 1-2-3 1) Torah Teaches ~ don't eat things sacrificed to idols 2) First Jerusalem Church leaders teach Gentiles ~ don't eat things sacrificed to idols 3) Jesus condemns the practice of two Churches who ~ eat things sacrificed to idols But if you'd rather listen to Paul, whatever floats your boat. However your last post resembles not a floating boat, rather a man grasping at straws while his ship sinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 3 minutes ago, Zach said: Good grief, there is not some sinister plot a foot, I shortened up the verse so the issue we're discussing could easily be identified. I put all the little dots..... So you would know I shortened it and gave you the Scripture references to boot, and you have the gall to accuse me of intellectual dishonesty? This is as simple as 1-2-3 1) Torah Teaches ~ don't eat things sacrificed to idols 2) First Jerusalem Church leaders teach Gentiles ~ don't eat things sacrificed to idols 3) Jesus condemns the practice of two Churches who ~ eat things sacrificed to idols But if you'd rather listen to Paul, whatever floats your boat. However your last post resembles not a floating boat, rather a man grasping at straws while his ship sinks. You are over simplifying the issue and are mixing contexts. Yes it is sin to eat food sacrificed to idols has an act of ceremonial worship to idols. That's what we have in Revelation 2. That's not the same thing being addressed in I Corinthians or Acts 15. The issue in both of those passages had to do with the principle that all things are permissible, but not beneficial. The Gentiles were instructed not to eat food sacrificed to idols so as not to offend Jewish believers. They were commanded not to eat foods sacrifice idols if it would cause someone else to stumble. Paul said it was okay to eat that food if someone was not eating it as an act of worship. If you are invited over to someone's home and you are served, you are permitted to eat it, even if it was sacrificed to idols. It really isn't has difficult as you make it out to be and to try and pit Paul against Jesus is not only incorrect, but it calls into question the veracity of the New Testament which is God inspired Scripture. So you having Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit contradicting Jesus. You have the Holy Spirit in disunity with Jesus. Sorry, not going to buy that hogwash. You are promoting a grotesque mishandling of Scripture. Your position should be rejected by all believers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zach Posted January 1, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 227 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/18/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted January 1, 2017 (edited) 15 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: You are over simplifying the issue and are mixing contexts. Yes it is sin to eat food sacrificed to idols has an act of ceremonial worship to idols. That's what we have in Revelation 2. That's not the same thing being addressed in I Corinthians or Acts 15. The issue in both of those passages had to do with the principle that all things are permissible, but not beneficial. The Gentiles were instructed not to eat food sacrificed to idols so as not to offend Jewish believers. They were commanded not to eat foods sacrifice idols if it would cause someone else to stumble. Paul said it was okay to eat that food if someone was not eating it as an act of worship. If you are invited over to someone's home and you are served, you are permitted to eat it, even if it was sacrificed to idols. It really isn't has difficult as you make it out to be and to try and pit Paul against Jesus is not only incorrect, but it calls into question the veracity of the New Testament which is God inspired Scripture. So you having Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit contradicting Jesus. You have the Holy Spirit in disunity with Jesus. Sorry, not going to buy that hogwash. You are promoting a grotesque mishandling of Scripture. Your position should be rejected by all believers. With a couple more mirrors and some more smoke, I bet you could eat pork, change the Sabbath day, celebrate Pagan holidays and reject God's Feasts all while claiming to be grafted into Israel! Edited January 1, 2017 by Zach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 5 hours ago, Zach said: With a couple more mirrors and some more smoke, I bet you could eat pork, change the Sabbath day, celebrate Pagan holidays and reject God's Feasts all while claiming to be grafted into Israel! I am not obligated to the dietary laws, the Sabbath was never changed, the whole pagan holiday thing is a myth and the product of history revisionism, God's feasts are given only to Israel and are fulfilled in the Person of Jesus, and finally we are not grafted into Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zach Posted January 1, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 227 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/18/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted January 1, 2017 1 minute ago, shiloh357 said: I am not obligated to the dietary laws, the Sabbath was never changed, the whole pagan holiday thing is a myth and the product of history revisionism, God's feasts are given only to Israel and are fulfilled in the Person of Jesus, and finally we are not grafted into Israel. Lots of posturing with zero support. I often wondered why those who claim to 'follow' Yeshua reject God's Feasts. Yeshua was: Killed on Pesach Rose on First Fruits Spirit given on Shavout -------------------End of Spring Feasts Yom Teruha ~ Feast of Tumpets, Ummm......Trunpets of Revelation? Yom Kippur ~ Feast of Attomemrnt, Ummm....they will mourn over him they pierced? Sukkout ~ Feast of Tabernacles, Ummm......Millennium, God Tabernacling with man? Youll also notice these aren't Israel's Feasts they are God's Feasts. Of course if Christians have thrown off Torah, they don't deserve to know these things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heyvavhey Posted January 1, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 346 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 140 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/09/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted January 1, 2017 (edited) On 12/26/2016 at 5:46 AM, Ezra said: Because Jesus Christ is Lord, Christians must refer to Him today as "the Lord Jesus Christ", not "Yeshua ha Mashiach" (which omits His Lordship). That's really strange legalism? In fact, Messiah is the proper term. "Christ" literally means "an anointed one". King David and Cyrus of Persia are "christos" in the Septuagint. But Moshiach (Messiah) is a unique anointed one, not be to be confused with any other "christos". I've got no problem with someone calling Him "Christ" but please....have a little grace towards those who are different than you, at least until you've attempted to understand. . Edited January 1, 2017 by heyvavhey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zach Posted January 1, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 227 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/18/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted January 1, 2017 1)Faith does not abolish any part of the Torah as a whole (Matthew 5:17-21, James 2:10) 2)Keeping the Torah is part of the faith that gets you to heaven (Matthew 19:17; Revelation 12:17; 14:12; 22:14) 3)You will abide in Yeshua's love, if you keep Torah (John 14:15-23) as He abided in the Father's love by keeping Torah (John 15:10; Hebrews 2:17-18, 4:15) 4)Faith in Yeshua does not cancel out what the Torah says, it establishes it (Romans 3:31) 5)Torah is itself "liberty" and the standard we are to judge ourselves by (James 1:22-25) 6)It is those of the flesh who are not subject to the Torah (Romans 8:5-8) 7)If you say you know Him, and ignore His Torah, you are a liar (1 John 2:3-7) 8)It does not matter if you are a Jew or a Gentile, what matters is keeping God's Torah (1 Cor. 7:19) 9)The "law of love" is that we keep his Torah - which is by no means a "burden" (1 John 5:3; 2 John 1:6; Matt. 11:29,30) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 19 minutes ago, Zach said: Lots of posturing with zero support. I often wondered why those who claim to 'follow' Yeshua reject God's Feasts. Yeshua was: Killed on Pesach Rose on First Fruits Spirit given on Shavout -------------------End of Spring Feasts Yom Teruha ~ Feast of Tumpets, Ummm......Trunpets of Revelation? Yom Kippur ~ Feast of Attomemrnt, Ummm....they will mourn over him they pierced? Sukkout ~ Feast of Tabernacles, Ummm......Millennium, God Tabernacling with man? Youll also notice these aren't Israel's Feasts they are God's Feasts. Of course if Christians have thrown off Torah, they don't deserve to know these things. Who is rejecting the feasts? What is it that I need to support? The Sabbath was never changed. If you feel it has, the onus is on your prove it I don't have to prove that. The Feasts are fulilled in the Person of JEsus. He was born on Sukkot, both Pesach and Yom Kippur were fulfilled at the cross, he was raised on Bikkurim and sent the Holy Spirit Shavuot. He will come again at the Feast of Trumpets. The dietary laws don't apply to the Church and why would they? They were given to keep Israel separate from the surrounding pagan nations. The whole "pagan" holiday nonsense is a recent invention made up by pagans who try to cast Jesus' birth and resurrection as a rehash of ancient paganism. Christians who buy into that lie re-enforce the unbelief of skeptics and confirm their view that Jesus' birth and death are myths. The pagan holiday clap trap has only succeeded in harming the Gospel. Nowhere does it say that Gentiles are grafted into Israel. That is a claim that is penciled into the text. Of 71 times that "Israel" is used in the NT, they are only ever used to refer to ethnic Israel. They are not spiritualized to include Gentiles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zach Posted January 1, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 227 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/18/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted January 1, 2017 1 minute ago, shiloh357 said: Who is rejecting the feasts? What is it that I need to support? The Sabbath was never changed. If you feel it has, the onus is on your prove it I don't have to prove that. The Feasts are fulilled in the Person of JEsus. He was born on Sukkot, both Pesach and Yom Kippur were fulfilled at the cross, he was raised on Bikkurim and sent the Holy Spirit Shavuot. He will come again at the Feast of Trumpets. The dietary laws don't apply to the Church and why would they? They were given to keep Israel separate from the surrounding pagan nations. The whole "pagan" holiday nonsense is a recent invention made up by pagans who try to cast Jesus' birth and resurrection as a rehash of ancient paganism. Christians who buy into that lie re-enforce the unbelief of skeptics and confirm their view that Jesus' birth and death are myths. The pagan holiday clap trap has only succeeded in harming the Gospel. Nowhere does it say that Gentiles are grafted into Israel. That is a claim that is penciled into the text. Of 71 times that "Israel" is used in the NT, they are only ever used to refer to ethnic Israel. They are not spiritualized to include Gentiles. ---If you don't keep the Feasts, you're rejecting them --- Yes, the Sabbath hasn't changed ---Where are you instructed to not keep the Feasts because Yeshua fulfilled the spring feasts? --- Where does Torah explicitly say dietary laws were to keep Israel separate? --- Pagan nonsense? It's amazing how them pagans got the sun to cooperate with their conspiracy! ------ Really? Who are the "them" in the following verse? Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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