Zach Posted January 1, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 227 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/18/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted January 1, 2017 18 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: That question demonstrates a complete lack of understanding regarding the nature of true faith. Tell it to Ya'akov brother to Yeshua. Ya'akov (James) 2:24 Shiloh do ..."You see that a person is declared righteous because of actions and not because of faith alone" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 4 minutes ago, Zach said: Tell it to Ya'akov brother to Yeshua. Ya'akov (James) 2:24 Shiloh do ..."You see that a person is declared righteous because of actions and not because of faith alone" My point was that your question assumes that I see faith as simply believing and that is not the case. I see faith as operative in nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zach Posted January 1, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 227 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/18/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted January 1, 2017 32 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: We are not annulling the Torah by not observing commandments that don't apply to us, in the first place. I am not required by Jesus to keep Kosher or keep the Sabbath day. So I am not breaking any commandments, nor am I annulling anything Okay let's take a simplified look at this: Yeshua (and Talmudim) were all Torah and oral Talmud Observant. So a person claims to follow their teacher, in this case Rabbe Yeshua, but claims they don't have to follow everything. All right, that's possible, IF the Teacher instructed his Talmudim they didn't have to keep x,y or z. So tell me where has your Teacher instructed you dietary instructions and observing the Sabbath are not applicable to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted January 1, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 1, 2017 44 minutes ago, Zach said: So tell me where has your Teacher instructed you dietary instructions and observing the Sabbath are not applicable to you? We are back to Judaizers today, just as the apostles were plagued by them. Speaking of dietary restrictions, there are several threads on this irrelevant topic. In one word, Christ abolished them. As to observing the Sabbath, Christians have Christ as their rest. The Lord's Day is the Christian Sabbath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zach Posted January 1, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 227 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/18/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted January 1, 2017 10 minutes ago, Ezra said: We are back to Judaizers today, just as the apostles were plagued by them. Speaking of dietary restrictions, there are several threads on this irrelevant topic. In one word, Christ abolished them. As to observing the Sabbath, Christians have Christ as their rest. The Lord's Day is the Christian Sabbath. Ezra, Your zeal must be commended! But for me to partake of your zealousness I'm going to require some supporting Words of our Messiah. Specifically where he instructs us not to keep the same dietary instructions he kept and especially the Sabbath, said to be an eternal commandment, Being an eternal commandment, surely would necessitate a clear instruction that it is no longer applicable as given. Don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Zach said: Okay let's take a simplified look at this: Yeshua (and Talmudim) were all Torah and oral Talmud Observant. So a person claims to follow their teacher, in this case Rabbe Yeshua, but claims they don't have to follow everything. All right, that's possible, IF the Teacher instructed his Talmudim they didn't have to keep x,y or z. So tell me where has your Teacher instructed you dietary instructions and observing the Sabbath are not applicable to you? There are no commandments to the Church that Christians must live like Jews. If Jesus expected Christians to live like Jews, he would have made explicit commands to that end. Paul fought the same kind of Judaizing false teaching you're promoting here. I have Jesus commands in the Gospel and He never commanded us to keep the Sabbath day nor keep the dietary laws or any other aspect of Jewish life. It is permissible, but not required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zach Posted January 2, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 227 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/18/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted January 2, 2017 (edited) 25 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: I have Jesus commands in the Gospel and He never commanded us to keep the Sabbath day nor keep the dietary laws or any other aspect of Jewish life. It is permissible, but not required Cool! We can just throw the Torah away because we ONLY have to keep the commandments Messiah specifically mentioned? Great! Umm...wait, so why didn't Messiah tell us; "If I don't mention a commandment it doesn't apply to you" ??? It would of been easy, see, I just did it in 11 words! Edited January 2, 2017 by Zach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 9 minutes ago, Zach said: Cool! We can just throw the Torah away because we ONLY have to keep the commandments Messiah specifically mentioned? Great! Umm...wait, so why didn't Messiah tell us; "If I don't mention a commandment it doesn't apply to you" ??? It would of been easy, see, I just did it in 11 words! The theological mistake you're making is in thinking that the Sabbath, dietary laws, Feasts and so on, are for all people for all time. And that premise is false and you won't find any mainstream Messianic Jewish teachers who make that argument. The Sabbath is only ever mentioned in connection with Israel, as is circumcision, the feasts, the dietary laws, and so forth. Gentiles were never obligated to do them in the OT unless they converted to the Jewish religion and joined the Jewish community. Gentiles Christians are not Jews, nor are they joining themselves to the Jewish people. The sign between God and Israel was the Sabbath. That was the sign of the Mosaic Covenant. We are not under the Mosaic Covenant and do not live in that economy. We are under the New Covenant cut in Jesus' blood and the sign of this covenant is baptism. The Church is separate from Israel. The Church is not a subset of Israel. We do not have any obligation to the Mosaic Covenant or any part of the Old Testament economy. We enter the Kingdom of God through Jesus and His sacrifice for our sin. The Church has a separate set of blessings and promises from God than Israel does. Israel has their own blessings and promises and God will fulfill those to Israel. But in the NT the Church and Israel are radically separate and attempting to join them creates an incoherent theology, to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted January 2, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 2, 2017 29 minutes ago, inchrist said: Sorry but this smacksof a superiority attitude. The problem with Judaizers is that they really don't understand what Christ meant when He said that He had come to "fulfil" the Law. They are so convinced that the Old Covenant is still valid that they have no appreciation for the New Covenant or for the finished work of Christ. And they also promote the false notion that Paul was at odds with Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted January 2, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 2, 2017 11 minutes ago, inchrist said: How is that even remotely possible since the new covenant was for Israel in the first place? Yes, the New Covenant was for Israel in the first place, but Israel REJECTED the New Covenant when they rejected their Messiah. Ultimately, Paul even turned away from the Jews and focused strictly on the Gentiles. So now it is only in the Millennium that Israel will be under the New Covenant. In the meantime, the Church (redeemed Jews AND Gentiles in one Body without distinctions) is under the New Covenant, while "blindness in part" is the lot of Israel until the Second Coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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