Anyone know where Christians and only Christians..

[carlos123]

Would the alcoholic, the money changer, the prostitute, etc., be allowed into your room, your presence, as did Jesus allow them into his?

I'll let you in on a litte personal secret I don't let it out much because of all the stereotypes attached to it but if anyone has let such people inito their presence and would continue to do so, I have.

I was homeless and lived among them as a committed Christian for several years. It was a tremendously enriching experience and although I would not willingly choose that lifestyle today I am very thankful that I experienced it. The police who came around to check on us once in a while used to refer to me as the Homeless Jesus Freak or something like that because I tried to reach out to these people. Not always successfully and not always to the degree that God would have me to but nevertheless that was on my heart.

So in answer to your question. You bet I would welcome such. Even into an online church now that I think about it. But I would not let them cause trouble and I would encourage any group of Christians I was with to lovingly correct them and help them feel welcomed as long as they did not cause trouble.

I find it really hard to understand something.

We view ourselves on forums as a mission field right? Okay...be that as it may....how does God view us? I would say it's as a church....whatever we call ourselves to the contrary.

If real life churches are structured in such a way and apply church principals in such a way that the flock can fellowship without all the ungodly and Satanic interruptions that come into the midst of online fellowships, why is it so hard to accept that God might want there to be a place online where the same things can be applied to us as an online church?

If, as I have said, God sees us as a church. A church on a mission field but nevertheless a church.

No one has yet answered hardly any of my questions posted previously. Does God view us as church online? Whatever we view ourselves to the contrary as. Does He?

Carlos

[Matthitjah]

Carlos,

God Bless you brother. I do mean it, you are my brother.

Let me show you some Scripture.

Ge

[carlos123]

I wanted to share that with you brother. For even in the days of Samuel when the Word was rare. God accomplished all His will.

Hi Dave. Great verses bro. I read them carefully. God will certainly accomplish his ultimate will bro. There is no question of that whatsoever. You and I both believe that. For sure and it's always good to be reminded of that and to find comfort in that.

But (you knew there was a but in here somewhere right ), can you be a bit more specific as to how that applies to what we have been talking about bro? Can you come out and say what it is you are thinking a bit more openly as to how that applies in our discussion?

Are you saying that we shouldn't sweat it? That God will ultimately accomplish his will no matter what we do? And that as a result we should just let what is, be? Like that song that says ... whatever will be will be?

That we shouldn't speak up and try and do something about needs in the church? With a view to what God would want?

I'm not clear on what you are trying to say Dave. I've never been very good at guessing what someone is trying to tell me through verses so if you could just come out and tell me how you think that applies and how it should affect us in relation to what we are talking about I would very much appreciate it.

I want to learn and I want to grow so if there is something the Lord is laying on your heart to tell me through these verses I want to know it. But I am in need of a little help understanding what it is you are trying to say.

Thanks.

Carlos

[Guest shiloh357]

Let's look at some of the reasons I have left churches over (or not rejoined them) that you would consider not worth leaving over.....

- women in leadership

- insistence on me and others using only the King James

- lack of willingness to let me or others operate in the gifts of the Spirit

- false teaching such as one needing to speak in tongues as a sign of being genuinely filled with the Spirit

Let's assume for a minute Shiloh, for the purpose of this discussion, that my understanding of the Scriptures with reference to these things is right on? Let's further assume that leadership in these churches was not open to being corrected or to do things in line with what the Scriptures teach in each of these areas.

Would you have me compromise what God wants done because a church is blind, unwilling, or otherwise to seeing what God wants done? God did not say to apply the things he said in these areas in His Word only when leaders agree that they should be applied.

OK let's assume that you are correct in the above views. So what? There is something to be said for a person who has the humility to serve in church inspite of where they may disagree doctrinally on non-essential issues.

Furthermore, as I said, if you had your eyes on service and blessing others, you would not care about those things. You would not care what version of the Bible they used as long as the Word was being preached. You would not care about their beliefs about the gifts of the Spirit because you would be more interested in seing the fruit of the Spirit being produced.

So, lets say you pack up and leave since they don't submit to your "correction." You go and find another church that completely agrees with you on the above issues you mentioned, BUT they disagree with you on a different set of issues that you hold to just as fervently and refuse to submit to your "correction" that you seem to feel they so desperately need. Now what? Are you going to get up and leave AGAIN?????

My point is here, is that nothing you listed above justifies breaking fellowship with anyone. If they were spouting things like the Mormons or if they were steeped in theology that denies the deity of Jesus or denies the Trinity, or were legalistic to the extreme, then yeah, I could see the need to find another church.

The stuff you mentioned above are things that people can disagree about and just move on and serve the Lord together in greater ways. Sometimes you just have to swallow your pride, and say I disagree, but I am going to let it go, and serve the Lord with these people.

I would also add this as well Carlos. If you are approaching pastors or leaders and giving them the impression either by what you say or how you act, that you are attempting to "correct" them, you have already lost. They are not going to respond favorably to you. Depending upon how you approach people concerning their theology, their reaction may not be so much a rejection of your point of view, but rather a rejection of you. The best way to close the ears of a Pastor, is to walk in think that you are going to correct him.

Something is really wrong and fundamentally so it seems to me when we as Christians can only trust God and obey and encourage other Christians to do the same, only in those areas that leaders give their blessings to through their own beliefs about what God says.

You are coloring this all wrong. Christians have a right to see things differently. Pastors don't always agree with each other, and yes, every Church has its own flavor. You simply have to find the one that matches your convictions as close as possible. Here's the thing, Carlos: You're gonna have to give a little. You are going to have just realize that you are not going to find a church that agrees with everything you do, and just suck it up and go with it. That is what the rest of us have to do, and we are doing just fine.

I know that in most of the Christian world there is the generally accepted "principal" that if something is not salvation specific that we are to basically ignore what God says as a church and just...welll....ignore it for the sake of unity. I think that is a very wrong and ungodly perspective adhered to mostly in an attempt to maintain a surface unity that would not be able to be maintained otherwise.

No one is saying that we should just ignore what God says, but there are some things in the Bible we can disagree about, and it is not worth breaking fellowship over. It really depends on the issue under discussion. It it is minor, then we can agree to disagree, but if it is something that bears on a major doctrinal position, like the Trinity, or the deity of Jesus, or the inerrancy of Scripture, then sometimes we need to find a different place to worship.

[Matthitjah]

Carlos,

Dear brother.

My point was that while Samuel Ministered to the Lord. The men who thought they held high position were even now being supplanted. For God surely knew what they were doing. It however did not stop the Lord from having Hannah put her child under the care of Eli. Neither did it stop Samuel from maturing under Eli. For he was able to hear the Lord even as he called Eli father.

Can you imagine being Hannah? God expects you to hand over your only boy to Eli. Imagine the questions? "But Lord he is KJV only?"

Ah' but when you are under the Will of the Lord? When you have done all you can and turned over your offering to the Lord? The ball is in His court.

Note Hannah's expression of Love and Faith;

1Sa 2:9

He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.

1Sa 2:10

The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them: the LORD shall judge the ends of the earth; and he shall give strength unto his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed.

My point was that Lot chose his own path, his own way. He would not submit to his Father and stay under the anointing. He misunderstood Abrahams kindness for weakness. The strength of Abraham was the promise of the Lord. The anointing.

Perhaps Lot didn't like the way Abraham prayed or something? Or the way he led his herdsmen?

Really if I were Lot? I would have said to Abraham."My father you have been so good and kind to me. There has been a quarrel betwixt your herdsmen and mine. Only Father pray tell me which ones it was. So that I can and fire those unprofitable servants who have harmed my Fathers House. For surely the Lord has placed me into my Fathers hand. My Father has been most Gracious and kind a man of deep Faith upon whom the anointing does rest." "Release me now Father to do as thy will."

Perhaps Carlos you should submit this situation to prayer and ask the Lord to put you into a House of Worship and service that is appropriate for you?

Then Minister to the Lord under Eli.

Peace,

Dave

[carlos123]

Perhaps Carlos you should submit this situation to prayer and ask the Lord to put you into a House of Worship and service that is appropriate for you?

Then Minister to the Lord under Eli.

All well and good bro though I am not sure about the part of ministering under Eli if that means I can't follow all that the Word says to do and believe.

I thank you for your clarifications bro but, why do I get the feeling that everything I have shared so far about church, the questions I have asked, the points I have made, have all gone in one ear and out the other? I don't just say that of you Dave but of others too.

Perhaps we will just have to call it a day and agree to disagree. You think? With me continuing on my way and seeking the Lord to help me find something better in terms of Internet fellowship than what I have experienced so far.

It doesn't seem like we are getting anywhere in our discussion at this point bro. Not the least of which is because the questions I am asking seem to be getting ignored.

Carlos

[carlos123]

Shiloh I think you are misreading what I am saying bro. Or perhaps I am not communicating it clearly enough.

I am not advocating an approach of going around correcting leaders. I try not to do that if I can help it. That's a silly and problematic approach. Who the heck am I? Moses or something? I will however stand on what the Word says and if a leader does not abide by it I will point that out as it becomes neccesssary to do so. If they do or do not agree with what is clear in the Scriptures that's their call as leaders of a congregation. I respect that. My role is to follow the Lord and trust Him in so far as He gives me light to see what He wants me to believe and do. If I can't both abide by what a leader wants his church to believe and my obligation to obey the Lord then...well...I just don't see any other option but to leave the church to look for fellowship elsewhere.

This is not about everyone agreeing with me. It is about each of us being able to follow our own conscience and practicing that which the Lord shows us through His Word without being forced to abide by the will of man in the form of leaders absolutely refusing to let us be ourselves in following the Lord as we think He is leading us within their congregation. And straight jacketing us into their version of how church should be, not God's.

My approach has been to just sit in my little corner reading God's Word and trying to apply it in the midst of other Christians. Who I desire to encourage to do the same thing in so far as the Word says to do something. Even then I don't encourage them to do things contrary to established church practice. What happens is I want to try something that it talks of in the Word, I see that I can't readily do it within established church practice or tradition, I go to the leadership to see if I can, they frown upon it, and I must then choose to either stay and deny my conscience regarding what God says to do or just go elsewhere.

I am not, despite all appearances to the contrary, a glutton for punishment in leaving myself without fellowship. Nor do I view myself as a corrector of leaders . Most of my experiences with church leaders have not been good (there have been some notable exceptions for which I am very thankful) and quite frankly I would rather not have much to do with most church leaders these days because...well...because the fact that they are leaders generally makes it less likely that they will be willing to look at the Word afresh as brother to brother. They are caught in their own church's traditions and can't quite well abide by something contrary to it very easily.

I know of only ONE leader ever that I have known in my entire life who gave up church tradition to follow the Word and that man has my undying respect for the stand that he took.

Let me ask you Shiloh....

Do you think that a practice that Paul made an issue of, regarding what all the churches of God practiced would be something worth applying?

And if a church did not let me or other Christians apply it as Paul admonished us to do, would you have me and other Christians ignore Paul's blunt admonishment to do it?

I am referring to head coverings on women. Now before anyone jumps up and down telling me there are multiply ways to see this, etc., etc., etc., whatever head coverings were isn't even the point. The point is that head coverings would be viewed, in light of what you have been sharing with me and in light of today's "enlightened" Christian thinking, as one of those inconsequential issues that we should just let slide in the interests of maintaining fellowship.

Please note Paul's words on this "minor" issue...

1 Cor 11:16

If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice

[Guest And8]

Carlos, why not visit private chat rooms - those that have been set up only for Christians by Christians? In the past, I had found leads to these on Yahoo, etc. They are not easy to get into because of the nature of things, but once in, very few were REALLY good. I haven't used even the good ones for many months now, so cannot give you any pointers. The reason I opted out is they were getting boring - it was just the same thing over and over again - no honesty, just a lot of holier-than-thou stuff. But maybe you will be luckier than I was.

If you do set one up, let me know - I hope yours would be different.

[carlos123]

Carlos, why not visit private chat rooms -

Hi And8. Yeah I have and to be sure they have been much, much better by far that most forums I have been on. Generally speaking it's just been Christians talking about Christ and very little all out arguments begin through chat. The one's I have been on have been real encouraging. At least in the limited time I have been on them.

Problem with that approach to fellowship though is that oftentimes what is shared is very shallow I think, in part, because of the nature of the medium. One can hardly get a word in edgewise before someone else starts to talk. It's a fast and furious medium and not very conducive I think, to long, drawn out conversations of the kind that allow one's to really get to know each other.

If you do set one up, let me know - I hope yours would be different.

Will definitely keep you in mind And8. I don't rightly know what sort of format or Internet medium to use. Nor do I want to start something just on my own if it can be helped since I sort of don't trust my own heart and would want the corrective influence of other Christians around me. One Christian that I know already is willing to join me in a mailing list so that's good but he is real busy with other things and I am not sure he would be able to be very involved. I just haven't found time to get it going yet and am also not sure how to get new members for it.

Still praying about and thinking through what to do.

I've thought of starting a private mailing list. Limiting it to maybe a 100 members and trusting God to raise up more leaders who could then go off and multiple the initial mailing list into many more. Like small cell groups on the Internet. Multiplying all over the place.

Can you imagine it? Thousands and thousands of believers from all over the world all involved in small cell group mailing lists. I think it might be workable.

Mailing lists in my experience allow for very detailed sharing and fellowship and unlike with forums everyone gets everyone else's emails. Don't quite know yet how troublemakers would be expelled though or how to apply church principles to it exactly.

Perhaps a mailing list with a forum. Or maybe even using new Internet technologies like wiki's.

Lot's of aspects to think through. Not sure which technology would be best to use though my computer related experience allows me to create whatever I need to create to get it going.

Carlos

[Guest And8]

I myself have been contemplating an 'eChurch' - well, church would be saying too much, as it would be a discussion/support group more than anything else. The problem if one makes it an online chat room is one of time-zones - unless one sticks to one time-zone per group of people, and then a schedule as to when that group goes online.

Otherwise, one never really gets to know the people in one's group, nor be able to follow the complete discussion (your problem of too many people chirping in). I think your solution of a few people may be the way to go - 100 seems an awfully big group.

I have one tiny group (5 people) of 'close' (close in terms of personal, not geographically) friends strewn all over the world (never met them personally) and we communicate via email with each other. It certainly has been very worthwhile (rather than having a large group of acquaintances). I think it all comes down to what the objective / your needs really are - possibly there are many needs/objectives that you would want to cover, and therefore many different forums/groups/sizes/media.