Anyone know where Christians and only Christians..

[Guest shiloh357]

Carlos, as I have said before, I am not sure that an on-line church is practical or possible.

If an online church is not possible woe is me! .

I will shortly be travelling all over between different states and unless we are prepared to say that church is only that which one finds on a Sunday morning with a preacher telling me what he thinks God is saying such that I can be involved in "church" as such then I will be unchurched and unable to experience church at all.

May I ask was Paul less involved in church because he was not physically present, oftentimes in prison, and needed to often write to the Corinthians, Philippians, Ephesians, and many others and receive letters from them? If that was church then is it not likewise church to communicate back and forth over the Internet, by letter, by phone, or otherwise.

What defines a church? Biblically that is.

Is church just face to face such that if it is not done that way it is no church?

Someone on this thread brought up that where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name there Jesus also is. Is that a church?

Must we gather physically to be a church? Can those in solitary confinement be involved in a church?

Why did Paul speak in 1 Corinthians as though he was there with the church when he was in fact just there in spirit?

Look at these verses....

1 Corinthians 5:3

Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present,....

Seems to me that to be one in the spirit with our brothers and sisters in Christ one does not HAVE to be present physically and face to face in order to be involved in church. At least that is how I read these verses.

Does anyone read them any differently?

Don't look at the idea of church through our traditional eyes. Let's look at church through the Lord's eyes and call a church what He calls a church.

A few more thoughts if I might....

1 Corinthians 12:27

Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

We all become members of Christ's Body when we are born again in spirit. If we say that the Body of Christ is the church then we are all already members of a body. Namely His Body.

So as Christians none of us is truly churchless though we might not experience much of the Body of Christ locally if we are not involved in a local body of believers.

But apart from what God has made us in our spirits, new creatures in Christ, we are nothing and nothing spiritually good can come from us in our flesh.

When we gather together with other believers it is our spirits that being one with Christ individually can enable us to collectively be one in spirit with one another. That is why I belive that Paul was able to include himself with the Corinthians in the verses I quoted above and act in his spirit together with theirs to do what needed to be done.

The Spirit working through our spirits is what counts. The flesh profits for nothing.

In view of all that I think it is definitely possible to experience church (or the Body of Christ) through means and in ways that does not involve physical, face to face contact. So for example we can experience Jesus in His Body by connecting with other believers, spirit to spiirit, over the phone, on the Internet, through a written letter (as Paul wrote), face to face, whatever. It really does not matter what form our spiritual communion with each other and with Christ takes as long as it is Christ working in us to enable us to act as His Body on Earth.

Does that make sense? I mean I could be off in some of the particulars but that's how I see it right now.

Do you all see why I cannot just sit here and say to myself that those on this forum or indeed anywhere else on the Internet gathering in His Name are NOT a church? To say such a thing would go contrary to my understanding of what church is. Biblically speaking.

According to God...not according to how we on this or any other forum might view ourselves...are we a church? Online but nevertheless a church? If not why not? From God's view of things I mean.

If those of us gathered together in His Name to do His work here or anywhere else online are not a church then how about 2 of us getting together to go bowling and enjoy each other's company? How about 10 of us? Would we still be a church, albeit a church going bowling? If not were Jesus and his disciples a church while they were eating? Or where they only a church when Jesus was expounding on His Word?

And if we would be a church getting together to go bowling or to eat then why is it not likewise true that we are a church gathering to chat online? Is the determination of us being a church just a matter of us getting together physically where we are a church if we are going bowling but not a church if we are online together?

If we come to believe that church is not that which happens traditionally in a church building on Sunday's (or Saturday's as the case may be) then when does a church cease to a be a church outside Sunday gatherings?

I have what I believe are answers to all these questions in my own heart and in my reading of the Scriptures but I am curious as to what everyone else thinks and would love to hear your all's thoughts in response to these questions. Again please stick to what is written in the Word and try to set aside traditional views of church in answer to my questions for those of you that would care to give answers to any of them.

I appreciate very much being able to discuss this openly here and am glad that those in leadership here have not booted me off for daring to imply or suggest through this discussion, as I do now after thinking about it some, that we are indeed a church. All views that we are a mission field notwithstanding.

I am NOT bashing this forum or focusing on this forum in particular. It's not about just this forum. The answer to any of these questions applies to all Christian gatherings online. I want to discuss this whole concept of church vs mission field and to come to a better understanding of how the Lord views us. Regardless of how we might otherwise view ourselves.

Carlos

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am just curious... What is stopping you from finding a good church home? I know there are many in Canada. I visited an "Alliance" church up there. They are very similar to my Southern Baptist demonination. I really enjoyed my time with them. Of course that was in Ontario, and Manitoba and NW Seskatchuan. (sp?)

[carlos123]

Church is where we go to get fed

We feed others in the mission field.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hiya Gerioke. Yes that is a common view of church. Given that I desire to know God's view on this issue however can you please point me to a verse or verses that would support the idea that church is where we go to be fed? And that a mission field is where we feed others?

Just a couple of additional questions if I might.....

So in saying that we "go" to church are you saying that church is a place? Is that what the Bible says? Is there a particular place that defines where we are to be fed?

What kind of feeding do you believe constitutes church? Is it being fed from the Word? Being fed through worship? Eating physcial food together? Being fed through interaction with other Christians? What specifically are we being fed?

Is this feeding the feeding of our spirit? If so, is a feeding of our spiirt possible over the Internet? And if so can we not have church on the Internet?

Who are we feeding on the mission field? Unbelievers? What are we feeding them?

Can you expand and clarify a bit Gerioke?

Thanks.

Carlos

[Gerioke]

The church would be the group of believers that we make ourselves accountable to

the food would be the word of God

and we would be feeding the people who are hungry for the word

This is what I gather. I am not a master theologan

If I'm mislead please correct me

[carlos123]

I am just curious... What is stopping you from finding a good church home? 

Valid question Shiloh and one I am happy to answer. Perhaps the Lord might show me something here that might lead me to solve the dilemna I often find myself in that generally makes it very difficult for me to fit into your average church.

Incidentally bro can you do me a favor and not quote the entire length of something I write in your response. It adds to the length of your post significantly without enhancing what you say .

Let's see now....what is stopping me from finding a good church home (I assume you are referring to locally).

First a bit of background if I might lest anyone think I am incapable of and have a hang up about being involved in a local church. I was in a church a number of years ago for close to ten years. Very actively involved. Very committed. I left that church only when a very strong discipleship movement came into the church where every single member had to pick a person to disciple them and every member had to disciple someone. Being that I was not exactly the strongest and best discipling material around, like the last member being picked in a line up for a basketball team, I was left on the sidelines and ended up not feeling loved. The man who led me to Christ decided to "disciple" someone else and I felt terribly rejected. So I left the church eventually, in part because I saw the danger of this discipling program as the church implemented it, but mostly because I felt unloved.

And no I don't consider mysefl to have been abused by the church I was in per se. The Lord used that experience to draw me closer to Himself eventually, once I came back to Him, and to strengthen me from the tendency to exalt man and react to how man treated me instead of to God with my eyes focused on Him.

These days I look to the Word and God alone for what I am to believe and for what I am to do.

The problem is that in almost every church I have been in the tradition of the church has collided head first with what I read in the Word.

Let me give you a few examples....

At one church the pastor began to allow his wife to lead. I talked to him about that and he in fact agreed with me that it wasn't scriptural but he did not want to cause a ruckus by confronting his very strong willed wife. Exalting his relationship with his wife over the what the Word said to do. I couldn't support him mas such and left the church rather than stay and cause problems by my stand on what the Word said.

Another one....a brother slandered me and I mean slandered me big time in a church. It was clear. There was no question about the slandering going on whatsoever. Me and the head pastor went and talked to this brother. Everyone agreed what he was doing was not right. The brother was not repentant. What did the pastor do? Nothing! He buckled under the need to discipline this brother and decided to not do anything at all! I could not remain in that church either.

One more. Good doctrine. Nice people. No instrumental music allowed. Well I did not feel that I could be winsome or that I could join with others to freely worship God using instrumental music so what was I supposed to do? Rather than stay and cause a ruckus I left.

Do you get the drift?

Church traditions everywherer, disobedience to clear verses laid out in the Word, you name it. Because I am looking to the Word and not to church traditions or otherwise I end up in my desire to practice what the Word says butting heads with leadership who are more interested in following church tradition, being disobedient, or what have you.

And no this is not a case of my having issues with authority or not wanting to be under submission or other such nonsense. I believe in submission to authority. I believe in having authorties.

But as I have said there is a general lack of looking to the Word in many churches and I am so sick and tired of bumping up against the stuff I have that I have decided to look for something different. I don't have time in life to keep church hopping. Hoping and praying that the next one will be different.

Leader of another church I was in for years was immoral with women he was counseling.

Another leader got on my case because God began a move through me, in what I can only say was a miraculous way, to get the Christians in an apartment complex to join together as brothers and sisters in Christ and start eating together 2-3 times a week, reaching out the lost, and so forth. Because...well...it wasn't under authority in terms of being under an established church structure. Never mind that God was moving big time through those of us involved. Never mind that the Lord was making His living Presence known through us. it wasn't...welll...you know, under a covering of authority (another church tradition doctrine if you will that has been virtually elevated to Scriptures in Christian circles) so therefore I was being rebellious if I did not force everyone to come under one church!! Never mind that we were a church by virtue of being the called of God to act as His Body in our apartment complex.

That is why I think most churches are a joke. I hate to say that. But that's been my experience of church.

I could write a book on how modern church as we know it obstructs the simplicity of following the Lord through His Word.

I could go on to talk of how the way pastors are today apointed is nothing like the New Testament example, how feminism has infiltrated the church in subtle but profound ways to strip the men of being men, and lots of other stuff.

Better to go off to try and start something new than continue to butt against the way church is.

I desire to get with brothers and sisters in Christ who are open to doing whatever the Lord wants. However different. However untraditional. Who will look to the Word alone with me and seek the Lord with me to let Him live through us.

And no (I feel I must always say these no's, because so often Christians will get it in their heads that this or that is my problem, that I definitely have a problem, anything and everything but that that the actual problem is that the chruch of today in general is not allowing God to be God in our midst) Christians don't have to believe everything I believe to be in fellowship with me.

I hope I did not fail to address any other presuppositions that one's might have of what my "problem" is based on what I have shared

Does that answer your question? Feel free to ask me whatever you want Shiloh.

Carlos

Edited to add the folllowing....

Oh yeah I forgot about the chruch that only wanted me to use the King James Bible. Only that version! Anything other than that was out of bounds! I think there was one too that did not want me to baptize converts in the river but only inside the baptistry in the front of the church too. Like I said I could write a book Who knows maybe I will.....

[carlos123]

I doubt that, that place can be created on the Internet.

Hi Zhavonay. Thanks for your input. Can you do me a favor and clarify what it is that you are doubting? And what kind of place can be created on the Internet? Not sure what, in what I said, you are referring to.

Can you also please not quote my entire post at length but rather only the section you are commenting on? I'm not going to get upset or anything if you don't do this but it would help to more clearly follow this thread if one's did not quote a long post of mine in it's entirety.

Thanks.

Carlos

Edited to make the quote appear correctly.

[Gerioke]

Move east dude

Ontarios loaded with exceptional churches of all denominationas

It took my family awhile when we moved to Nova scotia but we finally found a church that oozes passion and a double dose of the holy ghost

Really though, Edmonton is a fairly big place. Surely there must be one church there that suits your needs. If there's not then maybe God is saying move on.

[carlos123]

Surely there must be one church there that suits your needs. If there's not then maybe God is saying move on.

Or maybe start something new perhaps? .

I have intended for some time to hand out flyers, get some Christians together, and start reading the Word to see what God might do with us. Things keep poping up to sidetrack me from that. Not the least of which is the fact that I will only be around for another month or two in Edmonton.

Maybe I could be like Paul and start little groups (dare I call them churches) in every city I visit eh? Would'nt that be something?

Carlos

PS. Oh yeah when I tried to go back to the ten year church I was in I couldn't. Why? Well...you see...they didn't believe in the gifts of the Spirit for today so what was I supposed to do? Not let God gift me with whatever He wanted me to operate in? Not encourage others to believe God to gift them with things that were viewed as having ceased?

I've even had a whole group of Christians praying fervently and uncessingly over me to get me to speak in tongues. Encouraging me to open my mouth and force myself to start mouthing gibberish as a prelude to real tongues. Why did I let them do that? Because they wanted to do it so bad that I didn't have the heart to tell them no. The result? Well I didn't start speaking in tongues that day and well....I didn't feel like I fit into their fellowship either.

In my heart of hearts I think the church of today, in general, is one big joke. An object of ridicule to the lost not because of Christ but because many are acting ridiculous.

There are some that seem to be right on! Unfortunately I cannot join them because...well...they are somewhere else in the world . And I do not wish to knock what God Himself does in churches but what passes for God in many churches IS a joke and a disgrace to His name!

Edited to tone down a statement I made....

[Gerioke]

There are some that seem to be right on! Unfortunately I cannot join them because...well...they are somewhere else in the world .  And I do not wish to knock what God Himself does in churches but what passes for God in many churches IS a joke and a disgrace to His name!

Edited to tone down a statement I made....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

bummer

[carlos123]

bummer

Yeah I suppose I could look at it as a bummer but I prefer to believe that God knew what He was doing when He created me and that He knew what I would encounter in the church and that He has been at work in my heart to do His will through me. What that is I am not yet certain of but I can't help but wonder if my particular background is somehow preparing me for something wonderful if I will just stop going around in circles and trust Him to work through me.

Carlos

[Gerioke]

straight and narrow