Tongues

[Paul James]

6 hours ago, Daniel Marsh said:

Friend, you are using a poor tactic known as pigeon hole thinking.    For starters,  I am not a Cessationist,  nor have I ever found their poor interpretation of I Cor 13:8-10 as credible --- Eph 4:11-13 text knocks them out of the ball park.   When I pray in the Spirit,  it is in Hebrew.     Praying in the Spirit has nothing to do with praying in a language that I do not know.   When I have visited Charismatic or Pentecostal Churches,  sometimes someone will say they heard Hebrew.   I would ask them what Hebrew sounds like?   The Pastor or an Elder, who knows me is usually standing by with a smile.   I would point out that I speak Hebrew and no one, not even myself said a word in Hebrew.  

Isaiah 28:11-12 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
11 So God will use this strange way of talking, and he will use other languages to speak to these people.

12 In the past he spoke to them and said, “Here is a resting place. Let those who are tired come and rest. This is the place of peace.”

But they would not listen to him.

Definition of derision
1a: the use of ridicule or scorn to show contempt
b: a state of being laughed at or ridiculed : a state of being derided
2: an object of ridicule or scorn

The people in Isaiah 28 were full of Derision concerning God's Message.   Stammering of KJV is Strange Lips, Scornful, Mocking, words of Contempt.

In Isaiah 45:14 and Zech 8:23 alluded to in I Cor 14:23-25 were full of belief.    

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+45%3A14%2C+Zech+8%3A23%2C++I+Cor+14%3A23-25&version=ERV

There is nothing wrong in doing correct exegesis.   You can check a copy of Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament was edited by G. K. Beale and D. A. Carson, to verifly my assertions.    You may be surprised to see that one of the authors is Charismatic.  

Ephesians 4:11-13 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
11 And that same Christ gave these gifts to people: He made some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to go and tell the Good News, and some to care for and teach God’s people.[a] 12 Christ gave these gifts to prepare God’s holy people for the work of serving, to make the body of Christ stronger. 13 This work must continue until we are all joined together in what we believe and in what we know about the Son of God. Our goal is to become like a full-grown man—to look just like Christ and have all his perfection.

 

 

Let's just be honest here.  The bottom line is that you don't want to have the gift of tongues.  You never have, and you have argued against it as if you are trying to put people right about it, but the real reason is that you don't want to receive tongues, for some reason known only to yourself, and you don't want to be persuaded.

[Daniel Marsh]

When one has higher gifts,   why seek the lowest one that Paul wrote a church to correct their priorities as it comes to serving others with the gifts of God?   Most Pentecostal Charismatic Churches as a body looks like a tongue and are lacking in the more important gifts used in serving others.    The NT time had a greater range of languages than where I live.   Most languages known today can be learned for missions.     How diverse is your area in different languages?   Which ones?    French?  Spanish? Arabic?  Hebrew?

Is the whole body a little toe?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I am simply encouraging people to test the speaking in unknown languages surrounding them.

Most of those services come out as chaos,  and we worship a God of order.     

[Daniel Marsh]

1 Corinthians 14:40 ESV 
But all things should be done decently and in order.

1 Corinthians 14:33 ESV / 26 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,

 

[Paul James]

21 hours ago, Daniel Marsh said:

When one has higher gifts,   why seek the lowest one that Paul wrote a church to correct their priorities as it comes to serving others with the gifts of God?   Most Pentecostal Charismatic Churches as a body looks like a tongue and are lacking in the more important gifts used in serving others.    The NT time had a greater range of languages than where I live.   Most languages known today can be learned for missions.     How diverse is your area in different languages?   Which ones?    French?  Spanish? Arabic?  Hebrew?

Is the whole body a little toe?

 

So, because the gift of tongues doesn't fit into your role in the church, does that mean that you should teach that no one should have the gift?   So, what if the role of a person is that of an intercessor and the ability to pray in tongues is the best gift for that role, would you teach that the person should not have that ability because Paul preferred prophecy over tongues in church services?

What would you say to the Lord in the Judgment if He asked you why you put a brother off receiving the ability to pray in tongues, when He was leading him into an intercessory role, and as the result of your teaching, he couldn't pray as effectively in the Spirit as he should have and those he could have prayed for suffered as a result?   Do you think the Lord may require the blood of those who might have suffered and died at your hands, because you gave wrong teaching to a brother and blocked him from being an effective intercessor for those people?

[Paul James]

21 hours ago, Daniel Marsh said:

I am simply encouraging people to test the speaking in unknown languages surrounding them.

Most of those services come out as chaos,  and we worship a God of order.     

I have either been a member, or associated with Pentecostal churches over the last 50 years and I have never seen the chaos as you are describing.  In fact, all the services I have attended have been run decently and in order.   Every Pentecostal I know and have mixed with know the difference between praying privately and quietly in tongues, and actually speaking it out with the intention of having it interpreted.   Most Pentecostal pastors I know have taught the correct use of tongues in services and have been very careful to ensure that everything is done decently and in order.

I don't know how extensive your experience has been in Pentecostal churches, or whether your information comes second or third hand, but it is quite different from anything I have ever observed.

 

[Paul James]

21 hours ago, Daniel Marsh said:

1 Corinthians 14:40 ESV 
But all things should be done decently and in order.

1 Corinthians 14:33 ESV / 26 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,

 

I was converted in the most lit up, noisiest, AOG church in the country, and all the time I was a member there and in other Pentecostal churches, I never saw any confusion at all.  Everything was run in order, and every part of the service was in its proper place.   Anyone who was of the lunatic fringe were effectively dealt with, told to sit down and be quiet if they got out of hand, which was relatively rare.

In fact, in the Sunday morning services I attended at that AOG church, it was not too different to attending a Baptist church.   I have been in conferences where the glory and power of God fell on the people and many were off their seats and on their knees getting right with God.  There was not confusion there, just the strong conviction that they were in the presence of a holy God.

Edited May 1, 2020 by Paul James

[Daniel Marsh]

12 minutes ago, Paul James said:

So, because the gift of tongues doesn't fit into your role in the church, does that mean that you should teach that no one should have the gift?   So, what if the role of a person is that of an intercessor and the ability to pray in tongues is the best gift for that role, would you teach that the person should not have that ability because Paul preferred prophecy over tongues in church services?

What would you say to the Lord in the Judgment if He asked you why you put a brother off receiving the ability to pray in tongues, when He was leading him into an intercessory role, and as the result of your teaching, he couldn't pray as effectively in the Spirit as he should have and those he could have prayed for suffered as a result?   Do you think the Lord may require the blood of those who might have suffered and died at your hands, because you gave wrong teaching to a brother and blocked him from being an effective intercessor for those people?

Testing what is passing for unknown languages is not forbidding those who want the genuine gift from seeking it. 

[Daniel Marsh]

Limiting chaos to a time period of the service is still chaos. 

[Paul James]

1 minute ago, Daniel Marsh said:

Testing what is passing for unknown languages is not forbidding those who want the genuine gift from seeking it. 

The problem with that is, when a person is in their prayer closet praying privately with God being the only listener, who else is there to test whether the tongues is genuine or not?   Paul said to the Corinthians that even when they were praying in tongues during the service when they would be better prophesying, they were will giving thanks well.  So, he viewed their tongues, tested them and approved of them.  It was the fact that too many were praying too loudly in tongues and that they should tone down and allow prophesying to become the main vehicle for building up the people.