William Putnam Posted April 8, 2005 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 32 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/06/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/18/1929 Share Posted April 8, 2005 I don't know if I agree with asking the dead to interceed for us or not, but I am sure of one thing: asking the dead to interceed for you does not negatively affect ones salvation. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, it just might effect you positively! God bless, PAX Bill+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerioke Posted April 8, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 97 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,850 Content Per Day: 0.83 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/11/1911 Share Posted April 8, 2005 # 4 WSB I have to agree with you again. Praying to dead people is not only unscriptural, but a little morbid as well. Up until now I only heard hearsay about these false teachings and thought it was protestant witch hunying. But after seeing it with my own eyes... Yes Catholics are decieved, but still to be loved and not chastised for their mere being <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The dead body is dead, period, but if the soul is in heaven, why can we not ask that soul to pray for us? If I can pray for you while I am still alive, why can I not continue to do so, even while I am most favored by God for being in His Beatific Vision, that I can not be even more effective in praying for you? God bless, PAX Bill+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted April 8, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.26 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted April 8, 2005 Grace to you brethren, I would like to urge the very same sentiment that my brother Wayne urged in the other Catholic Thread. That we stick to our mutual Love for Jesus. It is something we people of Faith can agree upon. The Bible say's we have One Intercessor , One High Priest between God and man. His name is Jesus Christ. Only He could bridge the gap. I do not desire to see this thread degenerate into a Catholic Proselyzation thread. I too was once part of that religion. I believe there are Catholics who sincerely Love Jesus. I was one for a time. Please let us express our sincere Love for Christ. Peace, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Putnam Posted April 8, 2005 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 32 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/06/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/18/1929 Share Posted April 8, 2005 WhySoBlind responded: Ah, but now I respond with a reference ot the only time in scripture that departed saints are recorded to have prayed, and their prayer was not really answered either. This one? ]Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Who, the rich man who is in hell, where prayers either way will do no good? Also, this is a parable to illustrate the difference in doing good, which the rich man did not do in his earthly life, and Lazrus, who was destitute and the very image of Jesus himself, especially when he says "whatsoever you do to the least of my people, you do also to me." In any case, I see nothing for or against the idea of praying to the souls in heaven for intercessory prayer. You then give the following scripture quote: Rev. 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Sounds like the General Judgment to come, which says little about whether they can offer prayers on our behalf while they are "waiting." They are obviously saved, having been given "white robes," are they not? In any case, prefer Rev. 8:34 where we see the smoke of insense being likened to the "prayers of the holy ones (that) went up before God from the hand of the angel." Do you suppose those prayers might have been intercessory prayers for all of us here on earth? I thank the Lord I already have an advocate with The Father, that is the TRUE Holy Father! Praise the Lord!! Indeed, the only intercessor or advocate that can save us by dying on the cross for our sins! But this does not preclude the interaction of intercessory prayers to the holy souls already in heaven, the holy saints. 1 John 2:1 - My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: Indeed! No one else could have been a advocate on the cross for the sins of us all! But we can still pray for one another, between us here on earth and betseen us and those who have died and gone to heaven in the Beatific Vision of God! John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Indeed again! But again, this does not preclude intercessory prayer to the saints in heaven! Paise the Lord. Jesus told the Pharisees on the day of the Triumphal Entry, "If these should hold their peace, the rocks will cry out," and just a few days later, that prophecy came to pass. Praise the Lord! Matthew 27:51 - And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; Jesus Christ totally fulfilled the purpose of the Tabernacle and the Temple, and therefore the veil that seperated man from God was taken out of the way. Praise the Lord! But there is a different type of vail, one of willful ignorance and rebellion. Exodus 30:6 - And thou shalt put it before the vail that is by the ark of the testimony, before the mercy seat that is over the testimony, where I will meet with thee. Exodus 34:33 - And till Moses had done speaking with them, he put a vail on his face. Exodus 34:34 - But when Moses went in before the LORD to speak with him, he took the vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the children of Israel that which he was commanded. Exodus 34:35 - And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him. Just as Israel's vail is still covering their eyes. Catholicism is blinded to the truth of the all sufficient work of Jesus Christ. 2 Corinthians 3:14 - But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Whew! Perhaps one of these days, you can explain what that was all about! Quoting scripture if fine, but it needs some good exegesis to go along with it, WhySoBlind. God bless, PAX Bill+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Putnam Posted April 8, 2005 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 32 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/06/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/18/1929 Share Posted April 8, 2005 # 4 WSB I have to agree with you again. Praying to dead people is not only unscriptural, but a little morbid as well. Up until now I only heard hearsay about these false teachings and thought it was protestant witch hunying. But after seeing it with my own eyes... Yes Catholics are decieved, but still to be loved and not chastised for their mere being <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The dead body is dead, period, but if the soul is in heaven, why can we not ask that soul to pray for us? If I can pray for you while I am still alive, why can I not continue to do so, even while I am most favored by God for being in His Beatific Vision, that I can not be even more effective in praying for you? Well... because Jesus said that we can ONLY come to the father through Him <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Which means that only Jesus, The Christ, the Son of Godl, can have us "come to the Father" by Him, which is ultimately the sacrifice on the cross that did the deed. None of us could do that, as such a sacrifice on our part is finite - Christ's sacrifice, Him being God, was infinite... For that we can all agree... But it takes nothing away from praying for one another, either while we are on this earth, of from the Beatific Vision of heaven to be the better conduit of this prayer to the Father. Incidentally, intercessory prayer, which does not substitute at all from the supreme and only INTERCESSION in sacrifice on the cross, can be seen on the very tombs of the early martyrs in the Catecombs of Rome! God bless, PAX Bill+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerioke Posted April 8, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 97 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,850 Content Per Day: 0.83 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/11/1911 Share Posted April 8, 2005 I believe that you are mistaken but I pray that the Lords grace will suffice Blessings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Putnam Posted April 8, 2005 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 32 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/06/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/18/1929 Share Posted April 8, 2005 Grace to you brethren, I would like to urge the very same sentiment that my brother Wayne urged in the other Catholic Thread. That we stick to our mutual Love for Jesus. It is something we people of Faith can agree upon. The Bible say's we have One Intercessor , One High Priest between God and man. His name is Jesus Christ. Only He could bridge the gap. I do not desire to see this thread degenerate into a Catholic Proselyzation thread. First of all, I agree that we should indicate our mutual Love for Jesus. I could not agree more! But I am distressed that my defence of what I see as a distortion and a misunderstanding of Catholic doctrine is somehow.......proselyzation? Are you seriious? Please note that I did not initiate this thread, I only responded to an assertion made in the thread! In fact, I make it a habit of not initiating a thread in non-Catholic forums for precisely the same reason you seemingly think I am doing, proselyzatizing. Be advised that I will continue to defend my faith in the best and kindly manner I can do, the consequences not withstanding. I too was once part of that religion. I believe there are Catholics who sincerely Love Jesus. I was one for a time. And I sincerely hope that you continue to Love Jesus! I sure do! Please let us express our sincere Love for Christ. Peace, Dave <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I love Jesus with my whole mind, my whole soul and my whole strength! God bless, PAX Bill+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Posted April 8, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 115 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 8,281 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 249 Days Won: 3 Joined: 03/03/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/30/1955 Share Posted April 8, 2005 You've done very well here, Brother Bill, but no amount of proof, personal testimony, logic, or Scripture is going to change the minds of the Catholic Haters. You do not realize how comforting it is to have the mind hermetically sealed against the polluting influence of facts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerioke Posted April 8, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 97 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,850 Content Per Day: 0.83 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/11/1911 Share Posted April 8, 2005 You've done very well here, Brother Bill, but no amount of proof, personal testimony, logic, or Scripture is going to change the minds of the Catholic Haters. You do not realize how comforting it is to have the mind hermetically sealed against the polluting influence of facts! Facts? Noone has yet brought any scriptural basis for which a person is allowed to pray to a departed saint. is this not idolatry? Holy Mary Mother of God Queen of Heaven Virgin of Virgins? MARY ISN'T EVEN A VIRGIN ANY MORE! SHE HAD 4 OTHER SONS AND AT LEAST TWO DAUGHTERS THAT ARE RECORDED IN THE SCRIPTURES. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> WSB I've been amazed at our agreement so far today. I am assuming you are doing your best to base your statements on the love that Jesus taught. You and I do not pray to the dead. William Putnam does. You cannot change that. So be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted April 8, 2005 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 80 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted April 8, 2005 You've done very well here, Brother Bill, but no amount of proof, personal testimony, logic, or Scripture is going to change the minds of the Catholic Haters. You do not realize how comforting it is to have the mind hermetically sealed against the polluting influence of facts! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Brother Leonard, I honestly appreciate you and hold you in high regard. I really do mean that. May I suggest though that ALL of us who challenge the doctrine as taught by the Roman Catholic Church are NOT "Catholic Haters". Brother, I challenge the false teachings of the Roman Catholic Church but do not hate those who choose to ignore God's TRUTH and follow the doctrine of man. IF I did, I would "hate" my mother, father, aunts, uncles, sisters...well, just about 9/10ths of my biological family. My brother and I are the only ones in our family who left the Roman Catholic Church and now completely rely on God's WORD for TRUTH. So, I don't hate brother. I just know the deception that is so prevalent in today's church, Catholic or otherwise. Be Blessed, Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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