Charismatic movement

[Aida]

Jer...enjoyed reading your posts. I have not spoken in tongues before, therefore I cannot make a comment what it is like. I do know how it feels to be so close to God and feel his presence...that to me is the Holy Spirit. I respect your posts as well nebula, but like I said, have not experienced that. I do not believe that one is closer to God through the speaking of tongues. I feel that is not a requirement to be saved, nor is it one that God commands we use as a form of communiation. I have you both in my prayers, hope you do the same for me!

Ger -

I'm a teacher, too, you know?

I appologize is I made you feel less than valued for your gift of teaching.

Maybe I can express my feelings this way.

When I talk about, let's say, missionary work from the standpoint of what the Bible says, I acknowledge that the person who has spent their life actually involved in missionary work truly knows more about the matter than I ever can with all my reading and studying.

Sure, I might know the principles and precepts, and I might offer little insights I studied that this person may not have considered before - who knows?

Yet I know full well that my knowledge is book knowledge while their knowledge is passed on to their hands and feet.

You know, do you not that there is a difference between head knowledge and heart knowledge, correct?

It's like a problem that occured in the military, where these book-learned lieutenants would jump into a battlefield for the firsttime and start taking over because they have the rank and they know "what the book says."  Meanwhile, the sargeant know the battlefield, know this particular battle, experienced how the enemy works, learned through sweat and toil. 

Ger, I wouldn't want to discredit your teaching any more than I would want anyone to discredit mine.

Yet, I am aware that someone who has lived out what I have studied understands the issue in ways that I can't.

It's like when I took my education classes.  I learned all these neat things about how to make a better classroom.  When I actually got to intern at the high school and talked with the teachers about these things, I discovered that many of these neat ideas required a lot of time to implement and carry through, time that does not exist within the school year.

I also discovered that what I learned in the education classes did not prepare me for the things I experienced in the classroom myself.

You see, there is a value to experience and experiencial knowledge.  It's where the rubber meets the road.

What I'm saying, Ger, is the teaching you give would have more meaning if you were able to spend some time in the trenches rather than - what's the expression - a "chairside quarterback"?

With what you speak, I feel like you haven't been in the trenches.

I don't mean to say, "I'm better than you."

What I mean to say is, "Do you know what it is like in this trench?"  Have you ever had the chance to apply and test your knowledge?  Have you ever taken your teaching and gotten your feet dirty with it?  Or is your teaching more akin to a commentary from a sportscaster who never played the game?

It's not to say your teaching means nothing. 

It just means I feel like you are tearing us apart without knowing what it is like to have this gift.

It hurts me so much when I hear others criticising my praying with my gift of tongues, which is how most of us end up using it.  I wish I could convey with words what  a blessing this gift has been to me and what awesome times I have had with the Lord just praying with my gift of tongues.  It didn't matter to me that I didn't know the words; for I knew my spirit was letting out what was inside.  (Yes, I do pray in English, too, and have had awesome times with that as well - just for clarification.)

Please Ger, I know charasmatics have made mistakes, and I know that in our wanting everyone else to experience this wonderful gift we have received (for really, it is wonderful! ) that we've gotten mixed priorities.

I just ask that in pointing out the failures that you not make us feel as if the gift is of no value.

Please?????

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[BigJer]

Aida, thanks. I appreciate your prayers. I too am praying for you.

Nebula, So much for your gift of knowledge. I don't like to brag on myself. I have been teaching for about 25 years. I have been pastoring for over 20 years. I have fulfilled every duty involved with being a pastor. I have lead many to Christ and have lead several to being filled with the Spirit. My life has been threatened for proclaiming the need for holiness in every person's life. I am not sure what you mean by being in the trenches. Is there anything else I am missing to be considered having been in the trenches?

I do not wish to demean you either. I just believe... from scripture... that there is an over emphasis on one gift on the part of the Pentecostals. They all have my respect and I respect your opinions too. I just can't agree with the way it is taught.

I spent over a year researching the tongues issue from scripture, praying over each verse. I even asked if He wanted to speak in tongues to give it to me. He didn't. He said He gave me my gifts and I glorify God with these gifts. You may glorify God with yours too. (Not that you need my permission. )

Edited May 2, 2005 by BigJer

[nebula]

I respect your posts as well nebula, but like I said, have not experienced that.  I do not believe that one is closer to God through the speaking of tongues.  I feel that is not a requirement to be saved, nor is it one that God commands we use as a form of communiation.

Did I ever make these claims?

Nebula, So much for your gift of knowledge.   

Gift of knowledge? Where in the Bible is mentioned a "gift of knowledge"?

I know there is a gift called the "word of knowledge,"

I do not recall claiming I had that.

I am not sure what you mean by being in the trenches. Is there anything else I am missing to be considered having been in the trenches?

It's a way of saying not knowing what it is like to have or use this gift.

Would it be better if I said, "operating the machine?"

I do not wish to demean you either. I just believe... from scripture... that there is an over emphasis on one gift on the part of the Pentecostals. They all have my respect and I respect your opinions too. I just can't agree with the way it is taught.

I am not going to disagree with you there.

What has been bothering me is that I feel like you hate the gift and our use of it at all.

That is, I feel like tongues is being preached against.

Shouldn't you rather be praying for the gift of prophecy? = Shouldn't you cease speaking or praying in tongues so much?

Maybe you will say no to that, but that is how it more often than not sounds from those without the gift picking on our use of it.

Have you considered that the overemphasis has been in response to how the gifts have been forsaken from the church body?

I mean, many say, "Doesn't Scripture say that it is better to prophecy than to speak in tongues?"

Well, yes it does, but do the ones pointing this out themselves exercise the gift of prophecy?

If prophecy is so much better, shouldn't you be seeking this gift as well?

Believe me when I say I have prayed for years for the gift of prophecy.

It hasn't been given to me.

[BigJer]

Neb, brother, we are going to just have to agree to disagree here. I have clearly stated my views. I don't "hate" the gift of tongues. I have clearly stated that. I do not like the misuse of the gift. I do not like the unscriptural emphasis I have seen here and in other places. It is obvious that this is upsetting you so I will stop posting on this thread out of respect toward you.

[nebula]

Yes, it is upsetting me.

BTW - I'm female - does that make more sense then?

I appreciate your concern.

[Gerioke]

Neb, brother, we are going to just have to agree to disagree here. I have clearly stated my views. I don't "hate" the gift of tongues. I have clearly stated that. I do not like the misuse of the gift. I do not like the unscriptural emphasis I have seen here and in other places. It is obvious that this is upsetting you so I will stop posting on this thread out of respect toward you.

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Maybe you were reffering to whysoblind's posts. He seems to think that tongues is manditory to be filled with the spirit. From an unscientific point of view, I appreciate Nebula's gift of tongues as my wife has the same gift. I have been told I am annointed in music ministry. Niether my wife nor I understand our respective gifts as far as where they fit in in the big picture. But who are we to tell each other our gifts are of no value. Everybody has hidden gifts until they are brought to light for whatever reason. God bless the gifts we have and may they all fulfill their purpose.

[eagleswings]

Neb, brother, we are going to just have to agree to disagree here. I have clearly stated my views. I don't "hate" the gift of tongues. I have clearly stated that. I do not like the misuse of the gift. I do not like the unscriptural emphasis I have seen here and in other places. It is obvious that this is upsetting you so I will stop posting on this thread out of respect toward you.

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Maybe you were reffering to whysoblind's posts. He seems to think that tongues is manditory to be filled with the spirit. From an unscientific point of view, I appreciate Nebula's gift of tongues as my wife has the same gift. I have been told I am annointed in music ministry. Niether my wife nor I understand our respective gifts as far as where they fit in in the big picture. But who are we to tell each other our gifts are of no value. Everybody has hidden gifts until they are brought to light for whatever reason. God bless the gifts we have and may they all fulfill their purpose.

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Amen, nebula

i understood perfectly what you were saying, why all this arguing over the gifts of the Lord, it is the Lord who sees fit to give us each what He decides, why fight over it............the thing we all should be doing is walking in love and help one another.................and saving souls..........leave the giving of the gifts up to the Lord and let Him judge us if we are not doing it right ................as He will make sure His chosen , never abuses His grace..................

[BigJer]

BTW - I'm female - does that make more sense then?

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Say no more.

God bless