To OneGodBeliever- the list you gave me

[Mishael]

3 minutes ago, OneGodBeliever said:

You are far away from Christian belief so no need to talk to u.

Because you can't refute me also you didn't answer my question above:

How do you reconcile the Gharaniq incident with Islam, if this event if fabricated ad you Muslims love to say then someone must have fabricated it and since this event is recording a verse Mohammed supposedly said then someone must have produced and fabricated a verse like the Quran. You Muslims have no way out of this argument, anywhoe I invite you to provide an answer.

[OneGodBeliever]

4 minutes ago, Mishael said:

Because you can't refute me also you didn't answer my question above:

How do you reconcile the Gharaniq incident with Islam, if this event if fabricated ad you Muslims love to say then someone must have fabricated it and since this event is recording a verse Mohammed supposedly said then someone must have produced and fabricated a verse like the Quran. You Muslims have no way out of this argument, anywhoe I invite you to provide an answer.

https://youtu.be/WT9ejCz2no8

[Mishael]

2 minutes ago, OneGodBeliever said:

https://youtu.be/WT9ejCz2no8

It seems Shabir Ali forgets this Hadith recorded a verse Mohammed recited so if it was fabricated then it means they produced a Quranic Surah and that would disapprove the Quran. Muslims also have no solid basis to reject this Hadith as false.

Edited April 21, 2018 by Mishael

[OneGodBeliever]

1 minute ago, Mishael said:

It seems Shabir Ali forgets this Hadith recorded a verse Mohammed recited so if it was fabricated then it means they produced a Quranic Surah and that would disapprove the Quran. Muslims also have no solid basis to reject this Hadith as false.

This is a fabrication and has no authenticity. You have found one, I can quote you many scholars of Bible saying it's a pagan belief. If we stick to what Quran and Bible says, we would save lot of time instead of you bringing in some fabrication either by current Christians or early enemies of Islam and I bringing u narrations saying Christianity has Greek mythology origin. Let's not waste time

[Mishael]

1 minute ago, OneGodBeliever said:

This is a fabrication and has no authenticity. You have found one, I can quote you many scholars of Bible saying it's a pagan belief. If we stick to what Quran and Bible says, we would save lot of time instead of you bringing in some fabrication either by current Christians or early enemies of Islam and I bringing u narrations saying Christianity has Greek mythology origin. Let's not waste time

I don't listen to opinions of Christians, Muslims, or Jews, I listen to facts. So if it's a fabrication then you accept people fabricated a verse like the Quran?

[Mishael]

24 minutes ago, OneGodBeliever said:

This is a fabrication and has no authenticity. You have found one, I can quote you many scholars of Bible saying it's a pagan belief. If we stick to what Quran and Bible says, we would save lot of time instead of you bringing in some fabrication either by current Christians or early enemies of Islam and I bringing u narrations saying Christianity has Greek mythology origin. Let's not waste time

To say Christianity has Greek mythology in it, you must first give solid proof of a historic link between Greek paganism and Christianity and a time where Christians literally copied Greek myths into the Bible. Muslims have no basis to declare the Gharaniq incident as fabricated. This event is documented by the four early biographical writers of Muhammad's life: Ibn Ishaq, Waqidi, Ibn Sa'd, and Tabari. The Hadith and Qur’an also contain direct references. Additionally several other Islamic scholars on Hadith (traditions) support the event's occurrence.

When Muhammad first began preaching in  Mecca his desire was that the people of Mecca, the Quraysh, would accept him as a prophet and the religion he was teaching. They were not receptive to him and made life difficult for him and his followers, and many of his followers fled to Christian Abyssinia for protection. This was until Muhammad recited Surah 53 (Suraht-an-Najm) with the following verses:

Have you thought of al-Lat and al-Uzza and Manat, the third ... these are the exalted Gharaniq (a high flying bird) whose intercession is approved. (Ibn Ishaq, pp. 165-166) 

Al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat were some of the local idols worshiped in  Mecca. Previously Muhammad had spoken against them in his monotheist preaching but now he recited that their "intercession is approved".

When Quraysh heard that, they were delighted and greatly pleased at the way in which he spoke of their gods and they listened to him ... Then the people dispersed and Quraysh went out, delighted at what had been said about their gods, saying, " Muhammad has spoken of our gods in splendid fashion". (Ibn Ishaq, p. 166)

The Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, repeated them (the verses), and he went on reciting the whole of Surah (53) and then fell in prostration, and the people (the Quraysh) fell in prostration with him. (Ibn Sa'd, vol. 1, p. 237) 

Bukhari too confirms that after Muhammad recited Surah 53 the Quraysh accepted Muhammad and prayed with him:

Muhammad recited Suraht-an-Najm (53) and prostrated while reciting it and all the people prostrated and a man amongst the people took a handful of stones or earth and raised it to his face and said, "This is sufficient for me." Later on I saw him killed as a non-believer. Bukhari 2.019. Number 176; see also Nr 173)

Narrated Ibn Abbas: The Prophet ... prostrated while reciting An-Najm (Surah 53) and with him prostrated the Muslims, the pagans (Quraysh), the jinns, and all human beings. (Bukhari, 2.019, Number 177). 

Muhammad's desire had been realised; the Quraysh accepted him. The Muslims who had fled to Abyssinia heard about this and many of them began to return to  Mecca. The Quraysh accepted Muhammad because he had, "spoken of (their) gods in splendid fashion" (Ibn Ishaq, p. 166). The Islamic explanation as to why Muhammad accepted the idols is that he desired a way to attract the Quraysh and Satan used this opportunity to put these words on Muhammad's lips:

Now the apostle was anxious for the welfare of his people, wishing to attract them as far as he could. It has been mentioned that he longed for a way to attract them ... (and) Satan, when he (Muhammad) was meditating upon it, and desiring to bring it (sc.reconciliation) to his people, put upon his tongue "these are the exalted Gharaniq[6] whose intercession is approved". (Ibn Ishaq, pp. 165-166)

This is what is meant by the phrase, the Satanic Verses; they were words that Muhammad spoke from Satan and his own desire.  The Islamic accounts then say that the angel Gabriel rebuked Muhammad for what he had said:

Then Gabriel came to the apostle and said , "What have you done, Muhammad? You have read to these people something I did not bring you from God and you have said what He did not say to you." (Ibn Ishaq, p. 166)

Then Muhammad confessed:  I ascribed to Allah, what He had not said. (Ibn Sa'd, vol. 1, p. 237)

I have fabricated things against God and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken. (Al-Tabari, vol. 6, p. 111)

Muhammad then announced that Gabriel had now told him to speak against the idols and so  what he recited changed. Previously it had been:

Have you thought of al-Lat and al-Uzza and Manat, the third ... these are the exalted Gharaniq whose intercession is approved. (Ibn Ishaq, pp. 165-166)

Now the verse became:

Have you considered El-Lat and El-'Uzza and Manat the third, the other? What, have you males, and He females? That were indeed an unjust division. They are naught but names yourselves have named, and your fathers; God has sent down no authority touching them. (Qur'an 53:19-23, Arberry). Please read as well (Tafsir al-Jalalayn)

The last sentences ( What, have you males…) were abrogated after a while, because they were in contradiction with the unity of God, and were

This final form of the verse is what is now in the modern Qur'an. The Quraysh saw that Muhammad had now changed his message: When the annulment of what Satan had put upon the prophet's tongue came from God, Quraysh said: "Muhammad has repented of what he said about the position of your gods with Allah, altered it and brought something else." (Ibn Ishaq, p. 166-167)

This explanation, that Satan had placed these words on Muhammad tongue and God had now cancelled it, now had to be justified to both his followers and to the Quraysh. The answer came by referring to another part of the Qur'an: “Never have We sent a single prophet or apostle before you with whose wishes Satan did not tamper. But God abrogates the interjections of Satan and confirms His own revelations”. (Qur'an 22:52, Dawood). Muhammad's justification was that other prophets had had their wishes tampered with by Satan just as he had done, but God had corrected the whole situation.

al-Bukhari, Islam’s most trusted authority, confirms certain details of the story that only make sense if Muhammad really did deliver the Satanic Verses. According to Bukhari,

The Prophet performed a prostration when he finished reciting Suraht an-Najm [Surah 53], and all the Muslims and Al-Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah and in His Messenger Muhammad) and jinn and human beings prostrated along with him. (4862)

Though Bukhari understandably omits the embarrassing reason for the prostration of the pagans,  he inadvertently confirms the account given by Ibn Ishaq and the others, who faithfully reported that the pagans bowed down because Muhammad spoke favourably of their gods. Muslims must account for Surah 22:52, which, again, declares that all God’s prophets received revelations from Satan—a verse so preposterous that it could only have been offered to the Muslim community as an absurd explanation for something like the Satanic Verses. Why should we believe that Muhammad was spiritually reliable, when Muhammad was the victim of black magic and, at one point, was convinced that he was demon-possessed? (For more on Muhammad’s spiritual difficulties, see "A Bewitched Prophet?")

The only conceivable reason the pagans would bow down in honour of Surah 53 is that the Surah originally supported paganism, and this is exactly what our earliest historical records claim. Thus, Muhammad, in a moment of weakness, gave into temptation and actively promoted polytheism by delivering a revelation from Satan

Edited April 21, 2018 by Mishael

[Mishael]

All four of the biographies agree on all the primary facts: 1) Muhammad did not want to further offend the Meccans and he did not want God to reveal something to him that would cause further offence. 2) Muhammad desired a revelation that would bring peace between he and the Meccans. 3) When Muhammad began to recite the chapter called "The Star", Satan interjected some words and thoughts into Muhammad's heart and mind. This was coupled with Muhammad's own desires; thus Muhammad spoke Satan's words. 4) Later, Gabriel rebuked Muhammad for having spoken Satan's words. Muhammad admitted his sinful error and was then comforted by Allah. The accounts are very similar. Each contains minor different details, but all agree totally on the relevant essentials points; Muhammad spoke the Satanic verses. The fact that all of the earliest Islamic sources agree on the event is substantial evidence that it occurred. These are not Christian or Jewish sources, but early Muslim writings.
 

Edited April 21, 2018 by Mishael

[OneGodBeliever]

24 minutes ago, Mishael said:

I don't listen to opinions of Christians, Muslims, or Jews, I listen to facts. So if it's a fabrication then you accept people fabricated a verse like the Quran?

People fabricated the story.

[OneGodBeliever]

20 minutes ago, Mishael said:

To say Christianity has Greek mythology in it, you must first give solid proof of a historic link between Greek paganism and Christianity and a time where Christians literally copied Greek myths into the Bible. Muslims have no basis to declare the Gharaniq incident as fabricated. This event is documented by the four early biographical writers of Muhammad's life: Ibn Ishaq, Waqidi, Ibn Sa'd, and Tabari. The Hadith and Qur’an also contain direct references. Additionally several other Islamic scholars on Hadith (traditions) support the event's occurrence.

When Muhammad first began preaching in  Mecca his desire was that the people of Mecca, the Quraysh, would accept him as a prophet and the religion he was teaching. They were not receptive to him and made life difficult for him and his followers, and many of his followers fled to Christian Abyssinia for protection. This was until Muhammad recited Surah 53 (Suraht-an-Najm) with the following verses:

Have you thought of al-Lat and al-Uzza and Manat, the third ... these are the exalted Gharaniq (a high flying bird) whose intercession is approved. (Ibn Ishaq, pp. 165-166) 

Al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat were some of the local idols worshiped in  Mecca. Previously Muhammad had spoken against them in his monotheist preaching but now he recited that their "intercession is approved".

When Quraysh heard that, they were delighted and greatly pleased at the way in which he spoke of their gods and they listened to him ... Then the people dispersed and Quraysh went out, delighted at what had been said about their gods, saying, " Muhammad has spoken of our gods in splendid fashion". (Ibn Ishaq, p. 166)

The Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, repeated them (the verses), and he went on reciting the whole of Surah (53) and then fell in prostration, and the people (the Quraysh) fell in prostration with him. (Ibn Sa'd, vol. 1, p. 237) 

Bukhari too confirms that after Muhammad recited Surah 53 the Quraysh accepted Muhammad and prayed with him:

Muhammad recited Suraht-an-Najm (53) and prostrated while reciting it and all the people prostrated and a man amongst the people took a handful of stones or earth and raised it to his face and said, "This is sufficient for me." Later on I saw him killed as a non-believer. Bukhari 2.019. Number 176; see also Nr 173)

Narrated Ibn Abbas: The Prophet ... prostrated while reciting An-Najm (Surah 53) and with him prostrated the Muslims, the pagans (Quraysh), the jinns, and all human beings. (Bukhari, 2.019, Number 177). 

Muhammad's desire had been realised; the Quraysh accepted him. The Muslims who had fled to Abyssinia heard about this and many of them began to return to  Mecca. The Quraysh accepted Muhammad because he had, "spoken of (their) gods in splendid fashion" (Ibn Ishaq, p. 166). The Islamic explanation as to why Muhammad accepted the idols is that he desired a way to attract the Quraysh and Satan used this opportunity to put these words on Muhammad's lips:

Now the apostle was anxious for the welfare of his people, wishing to attract them as far as he could. It has been mentioned that he longed for a way to attract them ... (and) Satan, when he (Muhammad) was meditating upon it, and desiring to bring it (sc.reconciliation) to his people, put upon his tongue "these are the exalted Gharaniq[6] whose intercession is approved". (Ibn Ishaq, pp. 165-166)

This is what is meant by the phrase, the Satanic Verses; they were words that Muhammad spoke from Satan and his own desire.  The Islamic accounts then say that the angel Gabriel rebuked Muhammad for what he had said:

Then Gabriel came to the apostle and said , "What have you done, Muhammad? You have read to these people something I did not bring you from God and you have said what He did not say to you." (Ibn Ishaq, p. 166)

Then Muhammad confessed:  I ascribed to Allah, what He had not said. (Ibn Sa'd, vol. 1, p. 237)

I have fabricated things against God and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken. (Al-Tabari, vol. 6, p. 111)

Muhammad then announced that Gabriel had now told him to speak against the idols and so  what he recited changed. Previously it had been:

Have you thought of al-Lat and al-Uzza and Manat, the third ... these are the exalted Gharaniq whose intercession is approved. (Ibn Ishaq, pp. 165-166)

Now the verse became:

Have you considered El-Lat and El-'Uzza and Manat the third, the other? What, have you males, and He females? That were indeed an unjust division. They are naught but names yourselves have named, and your fathers; God has sent down no authority touching them. (Qur'an 53:19-23, Arberry). Please read as well (Tafsir al-Jalalayn)

The last sentences ( What, have you males…) were abrogated after a while, because they were in contradiction with the unity of God, and were

This final form of the verse is what is now in the modern Qur'an. The Quraysh saw that Muhammad had now changed his message: When the annulment of what Satan had put upon the prophet's tongue came from God, Quraysh said: "Muhammad has repented of what he said about the position of your gods with Allah, altered it and brought something else." (Ibn Ishaq, p. 166-167)

This explanation, that Satan had placed these words on Muhammad tongue and God had now cancelled it, now had to be justified to both his followers and to the Quraysh. The answer came by referring to another part of the Qur'an: “Never have We sent a single prophet or apostle before you with whose wishes Satan did not tamper. But God abrogates the interjections of Satan and confirms His own revelations”. (Qur'an 22:52, Dawood). Muhammad's justification was that other prophets had had their wishes tampered with by Satan just as he had done, but God had corrected the whole situation.

al-Bukhari, Islam’s most trusted authority, confirms certain details of the story that only make sense if Muhammad really did deliver the Satanic Verses. According to Bukhari,

The Prophet performed a prostration when he finished reciting Suraht an-Najm [Surah 53], and all the Muslims and Al-Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah and in His Messenger Muhammad) and jinn and human beings prostrated along with him. (4862)

Though Bukhari understandably omits the embarrassing reason for the prostration of the pagans,  he inadvertently confirms the account given by Ibn Ishaq and the others, who faithfully reported that the pagans bowed down because Muhammad spoke favourably of their gods. Muslims must account for Surah 22:52, which, again, declares that all God’s prophets received revelations from Satan—a verse so preposterous that it could only have been offered to the Muslim community as an absurd explanation for something like the Satanic Verses. Why should we believe that Muhammad was spiritually reliable, when Muhammad was the victim of black magic and, at one point, was convinced that he was demon-possessed? (For more on Muhammad’s spiritual difficulties, see "A Bewitched Prophet?")

The only conceivable reason the pagans would bow down in honour of Surah 53 is that the Surah originally supported paganism, and this is exactly what our earliest historical records claim. Thus, Muhammad, in a moment of weakness, gave into temptation and actively promoted polytheism by delivering a revelation from Satan

https://youtu.be/SNtF1-Y-JJM

[Mishael]

33 minutes ago, OneGodBeliever said:

https://youtu.be/SNtF1-Y-JJM

This documentary claims that the entire religion is some sort of Roman conspiracy, and while there is certainly much to be argued about in the history of the early church and even the historicity of the Christ figure, himself, this sort "wouldn't it be crazy if..." hypothesis, with absolutely no evidence, is pure entertainment. The documentary gives no solid evidence besides making up a random hypothesis of Christianity being a repackaged Roman religion. First of all the ancient Roman religion and Christianity were nothing alike and we have mentions of Christianity and the trinity before Constantine the Great was even born and neither was Constantine a pagan nor did he have any logical or political reason to convert to Christianity, if anything one could have actually considered it politically stupid to convert to Christianity and make it tolerated in the empire. The letters of Paul date from within a GENERATION of Christ's crucifixion. This is UNHEARD OF for a figure of ancient history, particularly for such an outpost like Judea. Then you make the IDIOTIC point that Paul never met Jesus directly, and thus can't attest to His existence. Paul was intimately close with MANY people who were intimately close with Jesus, so his attestations can't be chalked up to "hallucination. If anything this documentary is a conspiracy theory there's no solid facts nor solid evidence that Christianity was based on paganism.