saved by grace through faith

[John3;16]

There are many religions that teach eternal life is not necessarily eternal life, but that you must do good works and keep the 10 commandments to overcome, some even believe that once a person is saved that they must live a perfect life, and their reasoning is that the Holy Spirit indwells believers, also the call to be holy as the Lord said be holy as I am holy, and he also said that if we love him we will keep his commandments, but there are many who are in bondage, who believe that they are under the law, they are not living in the liberty in which we were called, some of the works based religions begin with mild forms such as Mennonites, some southern Baptist, many of the Reformed churches, and continues into the extreme views of the Seventh Day Adventist and Unitarian Religions. Even the Catholic Religion practices a form of works, and most religions of the world adhere to works for salvation, the concept of Atonement and Redemption are exclusive to Jewish and bible believing fundamentalists, although salvation through the Lamb (Jesus) is to known only to bible believing Christians, but where is the line drawn that separates those who believe unto salvation and those who are deceived and trusting in their works?

[EricH]

This question is so loaded with assumptions that it would be hard to answer. To say that most of the reformed churchs hold to a form of salvation by works may not be the most accurate statement. The question that would need to be asked and answered is what role works play in the life of the believer. There are 2 extremes floating around out there. The first is that works are required for us to be saved. In other words our effort brings about salvation. The other extreme is that works play no role in the life of the believer. In other words, salvation is simply fire insurance and that no change in life style is expected by God in the lives of those who come to faith in him. Both extremes are incorrect IMHO.

[M45510G1C]

James 2:14-22

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith, but does not have works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothes and lacks daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you don't give them what the body needs, what good is it? In the same way faith, if it doesn't have works, is dead by itself. But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without works, and I will show you faith from my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. The demons also believe--and they shudder. Foolish man! Are you willing to learn that faith without works is useless? Wasn't Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was active together with his works, and by works, faith was perfected.

Also in my sig is:

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. -1 John 2:3-4

There are many passages in scripture that make it abundantly clear that our faith is demonstrated by our works.

To paraphrase Geisler: Faith is the root of justification, works are the fruit of justification.

[John3;16]

In the book of James the work that Abraham is being credited with is sacrificing Isaac, two things to consider, first Abraham did not sacrifice Isaac, remember God intervened and as Abraham stated, God will provide the sacrifice, but Abraham trusted in God, and was willing to sacrifice his only son, (which God said that through Isaac his seed would be as numerous as the stars), and the second point is that the sacrifice of Isaac would not be a good work, but having faith in God is.

Romans|4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

Romans|4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath

[EricH]

I posted the stuff below in the welcome forum in response to a similar question. HTH:

____________________________________________________________________

Here is my understanding of what is required for humans to be in right relationship with God.

The Bible tells us several things about God in relation to salvation:

1. He is Holy (1 John 1:5) - That means that God is totally set apart from creation and cannot associate with sin. It is contrary to His nature.

2. God Loves People (1 John 4:8) - In spite of the sin in peoples lives, God loves them (even though He hates what they do). He desires relationship with them

3. God is Just (Deuteronomy 32:4) - God will deal in a correct way with sin. He cannot just give it a pass, but the proper penalty needs to be paid to satisfy God's justice

The Bible also tells us several things about humankind regarding their relationship to God

1. All people have sinned (Romans 3:23) - everyone who has ever lived is guilty of falling short of God's standards of holiness

2. All humans are separated from God (Romans 6:23) - because God is holy and can't have fellowship with sin, all humans are spiritually dead, or separated from Him

3. All humans will be judged (Hebrews 9:27) - because God is just, He must deal with the sin in people's lives. This mean judgement and punishment

Humans have tried many things to earn their way back into fellowship with God (good deeds, prayer, penance etc.) All efforts fall short because God is perfect and we are not. We cannot pay our own penalty (Ephesians 2:8-9)

God in His mercy and for His own glory, decided to take matters into His own hands by becoming a man. He lived a holy sinless life, then offered himself up as a perfect sacrifice for our sins (Romans 5:8). Jesus death and resurrection now make it possible for humans to have a restored relationship to God.

They must

1. Believe (John 3:16) - in the bible belief is more than just an intellectual assent. It is a committal of ones entire life to what is believed.

2. Receive the gift (John 1:12) - this is done through prayer

3. Repent (Mark 1:15) - this involves admitting that God is right about our sin and a turning in orientation from darkness to light (Acts 26:18)

Once a person is in right relationship with God, God wants to use them to further His kingdom. Ephesians 2:10 says this:

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them

In other words we were save not only to have relationship with God, but to serve him and eventually share in the glory of the kingdom. We are not save by works, but we are certainly save for works!

HTH

Edited April 29, 2005 by pastoreric

[John3;16]

Pastoreric

In other words we were save not only to have relationship with God, but to serve him and eventually share in the glory of the kingdom. We are not save by works, but we are certainly save for works!

HTH

I believe we are in agreement, that works are what we are called to, and the Holy Spirit can guide us in works of righteousness, but salvation is a gift, that can only be received by faith, (faith is also a gift) and in a single point in time, if someone receives Jesus as Savior, they are saved for eternity, that does not mean we have a free ticket to sin, because God will chastise those that belong to him, the parable of the prodigal son illustrates Gods heart toward his children, even though this son squandered all his inheritance on riotous living, the father waited, and circumstances eventually drove this rebellious son back to the father. I believe God will cause the wayward son to repent, through circumstances, the Christian who tries to live a worldly life, may enjoy it for a season, but eventually they will become the most miserable of sorts, and some of the effects of sin will remain for the remainder of their lives, alcoholics will suffer from their addiction, same with drug addicts, those who are involved in sexual immorality can have lingering effects of guilt, S.T.D.

[Pilgrim7]

I am always amazed the lengths that some will go to in order to avoid obedience to every word of God. And to use the writings of Paul to justify their theories is really a shame. Some claim that works have no place in salvation. Others say that they have no influence whether one is saved or not. Some claim that you are saved by works. What confusion. Jesus is very clear on the topic.

What does Jesus say?

MAT 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread

alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. (To live by means to do every word of God)

What does Paul really say?

GAL 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are

found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a

transgressor.

2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

2:20 I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ

liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the

faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by

the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

EPH 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good

works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in

them. (No work of a man before he is born again will save him. He must be born from above by God. This is done by faith. Yet this is a faith that knows that one has been recreated in the image of God because one has died with Christ, that Jesus lives within and He has been created to work the works of God.)

ROM 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may

abound?

6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer

therein?

6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ

were baptized into his death?

6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as

Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even

so we also should walk in newness of life. (This is a new life that works the works of God, every word written in the Scripture)

6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we

shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body

of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live

with him: (the new born is one with Christ, living and growing with him. He only leads to good works.)

We must use all of the Bible, not just some verses of Paul taken out of context by those who have no clue as to the essence of salvation. Salvation is a process, a journey, a birth and a growing up into the fullness of Christ. The beginning, or new birth is the reception of Jesus into the heart as ruler. Now one has been created unto good works because the old man of disobedience is dead and the new man of obedience has been created. Yet there is a race to run. There is chatacter to develop. We must grow up into Christ. If we pick and choose only the verses that seem to comfort us even though we are not working the works of Christ then we deceive our own souls. This is how God tests the verity of faith, He judges the works and whether Jesus dwelt in the heart. Those who have not the works of Jesus, have not Jesus.

HEB 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the

joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame,

and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against

himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood (death of self), striving against sin.

PHIL 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect:

but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am

apprehended of Christ Jesus.

3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one

thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching

forth unto those things which are before,

3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in

Christ Jesus.

3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in

any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto

you.

3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the

same rule, let us mind the same thing.

I write this for the sincere among you, not the gainsayers for they will never be convinced until judgment day when God judges their works and shows them their real condition before Him. They will hear the words, 'depart from me ye workers of iniquity'. True Salvation begins when one gives up his life to Jesus, and is indwelt by Him through the Holy Spirit. Since only Jesus has immortality, we receive immortality when Jesus the immortal one comes in. His indwelling presence is our immortality. As long as we abide in Him, as John says, we have immortality or eternal life. If we fail to abide with Him, then we are cast off as a withered branch and burned, then we will not have immortality any more. Only those who endure to the end receive eternal life, for they are still one with Jesus. I find it totaly unbelievable that there is so much deception among the ranks of professed Christians. It is not Jesus or the Holy Spirit telling people that works aren't a a part of Salvation, but the spirit of anti-christ. Shame on you Pastors,

Elders, Bible teachers. Go back and read the parables of Jesus, they make it abundantly clear. You must sell all to purchase the field.

Love in Christ

Dennis

[Fiosh]

Quote:

"I write this for the sincere among you, not the gainsayers for they will never be convinced until judgment day when God judges their works and shows them their real condition before Him. They will hear the words, 'depart from me ye workers of iniquity'. True Salvation begins when one gives up his life to Jesus, and is indwelt by Him through the Holy Spirit. Since only Jesus has immortality, we receive immortality when Jesus the immortal one comes in. His indwelling presence is our immortality. As long as we abide in Him, as John says, we have immortality or eternal life. If we fail to abide with Him, then we are cast off as a withered branch and burned, then we will not have immortality any more. Only those who endure to the end receive eternal life, for they are still one with Jesus. I find it totaly unbelievable that there is so much deception among the ranks of professed Christians. It is not Jesus or the Holy Spirit telling people that works aren't a a part of Salvation, but the spirit of anti-christ. Shame on you Pastors,

Elders, Bible teachers. Go back and read the parables of Jesus, they make it abundantly clear. You must sell all to purchase the field."

Love in Christ

Dennis

AMEN, Dennis!!!!!!!

[John3;16]

Precepts and context will reveal the truth of verses. If you read the whole chapter of Philippians 3, you will find the meaning of the portion of verses, that you posted.

Philippians|3:1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed

[Deez131]

This question is so loaded with assumptions that it would be hard to answer. To say that most of the reformed churchs hold to a form of salvation by works may not be the most accurate statement. The question that would need to be asked and answered is what role works play in the life of the believer. There are 2 extremes floating around out there. The first is that works are required for us to be saved. In other words our effort brings about salvation. The other extreme is that works play no role in the life of the believer.  In other words, salvation is simply fire insurance and that no change in life style is expected by God in the lives of those who come to faith in him. Both extremes are incorrect IMHO.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly. I also wanted to respond to the statement about Reformed beliefs. This was me when I read that ---->

Reformed churches certainly do not teach salvation by works - in any sense. Why do you think we call it the "Doctrines of Grace?" Works are important, but they are a natural desire of the saved believer to WANT to do what our Lord would have us do. Salvation by grace through faith is what I believe in....And I'm Reformed. Even the saving faith that we have is given to us by grace. We can't muster up the faith on our own. Before we're saved, we're dead in sin. Faith has to be given to us by God. It's a gift.

I do believe that salvation by works is a huge problem in many churches today, so I can agree with the overall concept of what the original poster was trying to say