Speed of light

[Logician]

Wow. SA is doing an excellent job. I have very little to add.

I do have a few things, though.

2.No one knows what light is or that it always travels the same speed throughout all time, space and matter.

Scientists know that light is a self-sustaining wave composed of oscillating electric and magnetic fields working at right angles to eachother and to the direction of movement. It seems to be the closest thing to "pure energy" as is out there, and comes in packets known as "photons" and that the energy of a photon depends only on the wavelength/frequency of its wave.

What else is there to know about what light is?

Third, the creation account states that God made light before He made the sun, moon, or stars. The rest of creation was mature, so starlight was probably mature at creation as well. I would ask the question, How old was Adam when God made him? Obviously he was zero years old. But how old did he look? He was a full-grown man. The trees were full-grown with fruit on them the first day they were made. The creation had to be that way; it would not work otherwise. Stars and their light were made at the same time. The God that I worship is not limited by anything involving time, space or matter.

Well, you'd think he'd have been able to come up with a way to do the same thing without appearing to be a charlitan, wouldn't you? Well, he could have (by the definition) but apparently he settled for something imperfect, (as evidenced by the fact that it causes some to question his existence) when he could have come up with something perfect. Why?

An omnipotent, omniscent creator would obviously know exactly what humans would have thought of the light-in-transit/appearance-of-maturity setup and choose a different way to "dazzle the eyes" of his newly created Adam.

Finally, I would also like to point out that the evolutionists have no answer to the basic questions like; Where did the original matter space and energy come from for the stars? I suspect God built the universe so we would say "Wow!" When we see the stars we should be reminded of the glory of God not evolution. See Psalms 8.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, the original (hmm... "original" is somewhat of a misnomer... but it's good enough for now) space and time emerged from the big bang. You see, space and time are really *one thing* known as "spacetime." In fact, you can take a little bit of space and trade it for a little bit of time, or vice versa, as shown by Albert Einstein. The thing is, when you have high enough densities (like those from which the universe emerged) the gravity becomes so strong that space and time are no longer recognizeable as separate entities. You have trouble telling which one is time and which one is space. Now, we won't understand this stuff fully until we get a reliable theory of quantum gravity (er... it's a long story. If you really want to know, I'll post an explination.) but we can derive from relativity (Albert Einstein's theory/theories), quantum mechanics (which explains the physics of very small stuff like atoms, electrons, etc...), and possibly string theory (one of the latest arrivals on the physics scene that helps to relate relativity and quantum mechanics in a meaningful framework) that time and space are indistinguishable and unrecognizeable when the gravity is too high.

All that to say this: Space and time at least "functionally" originated from the big bang. If either one of them existed before (well, not really before...) the big bang, there would be no way to tell, and really no relationship between our space and time and the space and time not originating from our big bang.

As for the matter and energy we observe, there are quite a few theories as to their origins as well, however, they're again untestable as we don't have the ability to make our way outside the universe. I could go into more detail on these theories if you wanted, but my point is that scientists aren't "clueless" as to where it came from, they're just unable to test as to which of a myriad of theories is correct.

And, SA, very nice job.

Oh yeah. One more thing.

A change in the speed of light would have to be a result of a change in the fabric of space and time themselves. For instance, there are scientific laws stating that gravity must travel at the speed of light (that's right, gravity does not work instantaneously). So, light slowing down would mean that gravity is slowing down which would mean that gravity would be stronger (you can think of it this way: if spacetime is like the surface of a trampoline, then slower gravity is like slower ripples in the surface of the trampoline, which means the trampoline is less taut, which means that a bowling ball in the middle would draw up the surface of the trampoline more which means that other objects are pulled to the center more strongly) which means that stars would suddenly shine more brightly (let me know if you want rationalle for this one.)

So, we'd see obvious evidence that stars were still "settling down" from the change. They'd all be oscillating violently, if not imploding and exploding randomly.

As well, a slow down in the speed of light would allow for breaking of the laws of conservation of matter and energy (or rather, the one law of conservation of mass/energy.) E=Mc^2 tells you how much energy ('E') you can get by putting a given amount of matter ('M') in or visa versa. Now, let's say you have 100 units of matter sitting around that you want to convert to energy. Before light slowed down, you'd be able to convert it to a much larger amount of energy (as Mc^2 would be much greater) than you would after the light slowed down.

So, while it's an "easy answer" to say that light hasn't always gone at the speed we see now, it would be not only observable, but catestrophic.

Edited May 10, 2005 by Logician

[DEA]

Wow, you can use all the science you want, until your heads hurt. But I know that when I lie on the grass at night and look up at the stars, I KNOW that there is a God that created all of that. And you know what, that gives me a wonderful, comforting peace inside, that science will never be able to do.

Edited May 10, 2005 by DEA

[Logician]

Wow,  you can use all the science you want, until your heads hurt.

Contrary to common belief, I've never come down with a headache due to overthought.

When the headache comes is when that paper is due tomorrow and I'm only halfway done.

But I know that when I lie on the grass at night and look up at the stars,  I KNOW  that there is a God that created all of that.  And you know what,  that gives me a wonderful, comforting peace inside,  that science will never be able to do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And that's fine. I'm glad it works for you. I know of a lot of people who can be satisfied with "I don't know how. He just did."

[spiritman]

Well I guess all of this just proves the Bible true again, for both us the Christians, and for those who refuse to believe described below.....

1 Corth 1:24

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Edited May 10, 2005 by spiritman

[Logician]

Eh. How can I put this in a non-confrontational kind of way?

Eh. Never mind.

[Fiosh]

Eh.  How can I put this in a non-confrontational kind of way?

Eh.  Never mind.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are we having fun yet?

[nebula]

And therein lays the truth of religion and the reason for it's longevity, from the first god ever created by man to the last one yet to come.

Just wondering -

Do you believe evolution evolved in us a need and a desire for purpose in life, for there to be "something" greater than ourselves - even if just fate - when there isn't anything there to believe in.

Wouldn't that be a genetic defect?

[Gerioke]

It appears Foglight has a twin brother.

Now we can have twice the condescending intellect for the price of one

[Logician]

Just wondering -

Do you believe evolution evolved in us a need and a desire for purpose in life, for there to be "something" greater than ourselves - even if just fate - when there isn't anything there to believe in.

Wouldn't that be a genetic defect?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I myself give credence to some versions of the "evolution of religion" theories. Basically the form of the theory I find most convincing is that religion in its earliest forms banded groups of early humans together in a way that made them more able to hunt as a unit and defend themselves and eachother. Thus, the religions that weren't able to form such a bond very well were weeded out. However, I don't think this was the *single* driving force behind the developement of religion. (However, that's just how I believe.)

However, a genetic defect is usually defined more as a maladaptive genetic trait posessed by one or a specific few members of a species, so it really wouldn't fall under that definition.

However, it's not as if evolution never causes bad effects. For instance, apes are much more adapted to walking on four limbs, not 2. As a result, our spinal columns are not yet adapted to upright walking, and chiropracters reap the benefits. As well, we have wisdom teeth, a trait which could come in handy for a hunter-gatherer with no dental coverage, but just causes problems now that we have such simple things as toothbrushes.

[spiritman]

Do Christiains have all the answers to all the questions? No of course not,

And neither do the Atheists

The fact is when it comes to not knowing the answer to a question, after researching it, We just fall back on faith.

I have seen to many miracles, and God's presence in my life to not believe, or be convinced, other wise of Christs Lordship.

it's that grey area that atheists dare not cross.....

for the Just shall live by faith

Hebrews 11:1-3 Amp version

NOW FAITH is the assurance (the confirmation, [a]the title deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses].

For by [faith--trust and holy fervor born of faith] the men of old had divine testimony borne to them and obtained a good report.

By faith we understand that the worlds [during the successive ages] were framed (fashioned, put in order, and equipped for their intended purpose) by the word of God, so that what we see was not made out of things which are visible.

Edited May 10, 2005 by spiritman