America

[apothanein kerdos]

Do you live in Israel or do you enjoy the benifits of living in the U.S.?. You make it sound like the only reason America exists is to cater to Israel.

If America wants to continue to exist it better cater to Israel. Any brief study of History and the Bible will prove this fact to be true.

He didn't always pick Israel. He allowed them to be destroyed and to be put into captivity.

And brought them back from captivity with a promise of spiritual redemption.

I understand your beliefs about End-Times but they can be challenged.

No they can't. Anyone with a valid understanding of how the end time opperates and has actually looked past Revelation in studying the end times realizes that Israel, the actual Jews, play a key role in it. A reading of Hosea shows many promises that have been left open and not fulfilled, these promises were made specifically to the Jews.

If Bush is doing mean stuff to Israel then Israel should have no more dealings with America.

And cut off their one and only ally? Instead, they shoudl point out that Bush said something stupid and wrong and work through it. Bush isn't God, i know this fact is foreign to you, but he really isn't. He is a man that makes mistakes. I support him and I think he is a great president, I just think he is wrong on this issue. If you have a problem with that then tough.

This would include accepting money and military hardware.

Last time Israel did that was back in the 80's. Since then they've developed air craft and military hardware that is supperior to America's.

If your loyalty to Israel comes first, you should be living there and ready to fight and die for it.

If God placed me there I would.

And why would you wan't anything from America

Quote me where I said that.

You should demand that the Israeli government stop accepting any American taxpayer's dollars because as you put it, America is not on God's team because they elected a now anti- Israeli leader

Quote me where I said that.

If their not on God's team the only other team they can be running plays for is Satan's. Don't take money from the Devil.

Quote me where I said that.

What I don't understand is this " Israel comes first before my country stuff". "If it comes down to a fight between Israel and America...Baby I choose Israel!". OK ...your loyalty is to Israel 1rst. Why don't you become an Israeli citizen? Why are you still enjoying the benefits of living in the U.S.A.?

As Christians our loyalty should be to Israel first. It is and remains the only nation ever established by God Himself.

So what if a problem between us did occur? Am I to understand that Juper Jew would make war against this country even if he still was a citizen? What would you call that?Call it what you will but brother...I know what that is.

I call it biblical. Name one nation since 70AD that has gone up against the Jews and prospered.

I know that some here have bought into the Hal Lindsey style eschatology. Ive been listening to this guy since the 70s. His scenarios change with the head lines. He sensationalizes and sells books. Now he has people believing that they must be willing to commit treason because God is the quarterback for Israels team. This is dangerous and misguided. I understand putting God first but many great Christian scholars such as Hank Hanegrraff polk huge holes in this Hal Lindsey/Jack Van Empy stuff with ease. Still...if you would turn on this country..you should not live here and enjoy the benefits of it. If you can't see that...I don't know what to else to say. Its a bit hypocritical. Sorry, thats just how I see it.

Thank you for proving your ignorance in the field of estchatology. You attack the hair brained maniacs that accept certain truths and blanket an entire belief. Should I equate you to David Duke seeing as how he falls into your belief camp as well?

I have no beef with Israel. I have a beef with people who benefit from living in America but put other countries first and openly declare that they would turn on America if America dosen't fit into their particular debatable Bible scenereo. Move to the other country.

Its historical fact. Name one nation that has prospered after persecuting or attacking the Jews since 70AD.

I do not and will not support the UN or any of their globalist propaganda.

If we want to see first hand what entity outside the Middle East that is an enemy of Israel, you need look no further than the Secretary General's chair at the UN.

I hope we can all agree on that. I HATE the UN.

[Shimshon]

Its historical fact. Name one nation that has prospered after persecuting or attacking the Jews since 70AD.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

shalom SJ,

Just noticing your allusion to 70AD. Now, I understand Yisrael fell to Rome then. But, just how do you see it that they 'prospered' for doing so? Yes, I agree that it was by the will of God that Rome conquered Yisrael. But they surely didn't prosper afterwards. The whole kingdom fell shortly after. Rome was burned to the ground as well. The nation crumbled upon itself. And we are STILL dealing with it's death throws. Sure, they accomplished the sacking of Yerushalayim, but not to the prosperity of their own nation. They were used like Bavel. Nothing prospers unless it's built upon the Rock of our foundation. Just my 2 cents.

[apothanein kerdos]

Its historical fact. Name one nation that has prospered after persecuting or attacking the Jews since 70AD.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

shalom SJ,

Just noticing your allusion to 70AD. Now, I understand Yisrael fell to Rome then. But, just how do you see it that they 'prospered' for doing so? Yes, I agree that it was by the will of God that Rome conquered Yisrael. But they surely didn't prosper afterwards. The whole kingdom fell shortly after. Rome was burned to the ground as well. The nation crumbled upon itself. And we are STILL dealing with it's death throws. Sure, they accomplished the sacking of Yerushalayim, but not to the prosperity of their own nation. They were used like Bavel. Nothing prospers unless it's built upon the Rock of our foundation. Just my 2 cents.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's exactly my point. Rome conquered the Jews much earlier than 70AD, but destroyed them and scattered them in 70AD. Rome went through some terrible times soon after this that eventually lead to its brutal and bloody collapse. I point to 70AD because it was the first widespread persecution of the Jews after Christ had come. Many people believe God turned His back on the Jews after Christ, however I am pointing out that every nation that has persecuted the Jews since Christ (70AD being the first widespread persecution) has failed and flopped.

[dgolvach]

If America wants to continue to exist it better cater to Israel. Any brief study of History and the Bible will prove this fact to be true.

Sounds pretty threatening. America owes Israel notta. Brief study of history? Well...1948-1776=HmmmmmmI believe America was around and doing well 172 years before Irsrel was there to cater too. Bible Study? Whose? Yours and Jack Van Empy's....Thats no proof at all. Thats your view. Others have quite a different take on it.

Bush isn't God, i know this fact is foreign to you

You need to go back and take a closer look at my post's. Could you, Hal Lindsey and Jack Van Empy be wrong or is that impossible?

Quote me where I said that.

Juper Jew...You said that if it came down between Israel or America, your loyalty would go to Israel. You said that you wanted to be on the "winning team". I have no problem with that as long as you live there and not in America. That would be understandable. You have been there? great...why did you come back to a country you are not loyal too first. How are you gonna be on the winning team if you are not on their side of the scrimmage line. What are you gonna do? Just sit here and yell..."Go team"...from this side? Not much of a team player are you? You need to get in that huddle otherwise, your just a bench warmer. Your gonna miss all of the big plays if you don't get over there.

Thank you for proving your ignorance in the field of estchatology. You attack the hair brained maniacs that accept certain truths and blanket an entire belief. Should I equate you to David Duke seeing as how he falls into your belief camp as well?

What substance!!!!This is more like it. Keep it coming! If it makes you feel better, don't let me stop you.

Its historical fact. Name one nation that has prospered after persecuting or attacking the Jews since 70AD.

Like I said...NATIONWISE America has been the best friend Israel and the Jews have ever had. So much so that the rest of the Jew-Hating world hates us which is fine with me. I don't care.

United Airlines has a good special running right now from the U.S. to Israel.

God Bless

Dan

[dgolvach]

Making George Bush out to be "stupid" and a "betrayer" (which is not true) will play into who's hands?

The abortion , gay marriage, no guns, legalize drugs, TV porn, America hating left. Thats who. The party who caters far more to the Christian point of view is hanging on to power by a 2% margin in America. You can work inside the party and try to pull it more over to your side, go third party,support no party at all or express more than just constuctive criticizm as was clearly done on this board. The first option seems the most practical to me. If you want to talk about something that could bring America down, consider what the leftists wan't to do in this country. Now...!!! I can see the fireballs decending from heaven. Those of us who lean right, calling Bush an idiot or 2 faced publically is just what the Doctor on the left ordered. I have a different view on Israel and the end times than others here. That does not make me an anti-semite. As I have stated in previous posts, I consider Israel an allie of the U.S.. There are many God fearing Christians that don't hold the same view as expressed here. That does not put them on par with David Duke.( How Silly!)Think real hard about the realistic alternative to President Bush or someone like him.

Do you think having a group that resembles the ideology of Howard Dean or Al Gore it going to move America closer to being a more Israel friendly nation?

On one hand, Christians have a heavy voice in this country but if we are going to whine or implode everytime Bush says or does something that is not up to our absolute standard or liking, how are we going to keep what we do have stable?

Just some thoughts.

Dan

[apothanein kerdos]

Sounds pretty threatening. America owes Israel notta. Brief study of history? Well...1948-1776=HmmmmmmI believe America was around and doing well 172 years before Irsrel was there to cater too.

They were the only nation that, as a government, was accepting of Jews. God has blessed the US because the US has always been a safe haven for the Jews.

Bible Study? Whose? Yours and Jack Van Empy's....Thats no proof at all. Thats your view. Others have quite a different take on it.

Where do you get your information? David Duke? Which Roman Pope? Seeing as how the idea that the church is Israel regarding eschatology is a purely Roman Catholic idea...

You need to go back and take a closer look at my post's. Could you, Hal Lindsey and Jack Van Empy be wrong or is that impossible?

As I pointed out, simply because to nut jobs accept a valid theory doesn't mean the theory is now false. They also believe that Jesus is the Son of God. So because they believe this does it now mean Jesus isn't the Son of God? They accepted the theory of Israel being literal in eschatology, they didn't come up with it. The Roman Church, however, did come up with the Church being Israel.

Juper Jew

It starts with an "S", it is Super Jew....it isn't that hard to figure out.

What substance!!!!This is more like it. Keep it coming! If it makes you feel better, don't let me stop you.

You ignored the point, as I expected you would. The only people I know of that believe the same way you do are ardent anti-semites, such as David Duke, or Roman Catholics. Seeing as how the KKK and the ROman Catholic Church are the originators and acceptors of what you say, who falls into a worse camp? If you want to play guilt by association (as you implied by saying Lindsay and Impe both believe Israel is literal) then you lose. The idea that the Jews were no longer chosen didn't come about until well into the 2nd century AD.

United Airlines has a good special running right now from the U.S. to Israel.

If God ever calls me over there then I shall go. If the US cuts its alliance with Israel I should go. If the US ever attacks Israel I shall go. As it is for now, God placed me in the US for a reason. This doesn't mean I can't support Israel more than the US.

There are many God fearing Christians that don't hold the same view as expressed here. That does not put them on par with David Duke.(

There are Christians who believe that Israel is literal. They have linguistic, historical, and scriptural proof for it. All scripture, when properly interpreted with other scripture, will always prove that the Israel in the end times is literal. Yet you seem to think anyone that believes this follows Lindsay or Impe...how silly.

[dgolvach]

They were the only nation that, as a government, was accepting of Jews. God has blessed the US because the US has always been a safe haven for the Jews.

No your wrong. God has bless the US because many of its citezens follow Christ and have felt it necessary to create a Government that reflects those beliefs. This Ideology is being attacked by those who you may well help to elect when you or others whine about Bush.

Where do you get your information? David Duke? Which Roman Pope? Seeing as how the idea that the church is Israel regarding eschatology is a purely Roman Catholic idea...

The Bible. But if you want me to name names, I believe Hank Hanegrraaf is far more sound in his doctrine than Jack and Rexella. As for your David Duke comment....that really dosen't deserve a responce. Do you belive that the end time's Babylon is literal?

It starts with an "S", it is Super Jew....it isn't that hard to figure out.

Well...A pox upon me for missing the "S". Is that against Levitical law or something?

If God ever calls me over there then I shall go. If the US cuts its alliance with Israel I should go. If the US ever attacks Israel I shall go. As it is for now, God placed me in the US for a reason. This doesn't mean I can't support Israel more than the US.

Are you living well here in the U.S..? Going hungry? If the U.S. ever attacks Israel? What paraniod fantacies are you allowing in to your head?

As I pointed out...graveyards all over the world are full of AMERICAN soldiers who fought and died to give you the right to even openly say such things. Your attitude is ungreatful beyond belief and if you acted on your words it would be treasonous. I know...

here it comes..." the Bible says that God is only on Israel's team and the only reason America and Americans exist is to kiss Israel's backside! So there!!".

Save your breath...Ive been hearing this Israel End Times stuff since I was a teenager 30 years ago. Its never been anything more than speculation and "pin the tail on the Anti-Christ".

[apothanein kerdos]

I knew the true you, the anti-semetic side, would rear its ugly head at some point.

No your wrong. God has bless the US because many of its citezens follow Christ and have felt it necessary to create a Government that reflects those beliefs.

HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

At what point were we a Christian nation? When we burned people for being "witches"? When we enslaved people under the guise that "All men are created equal....except for Blacks, they aren't men"? When we went to war with Mexico to grab land from them? When we committed genocide against the Indians? Please, I'm curious...at what point was America a Christian nation? A great nation, yes, one worth dying for. But to say it was run by Christian men or was a Christian nation is something that belongs in a comedy act, not history.

The Bible. But if you want me to name names, I believe Hank Hanegrraaf is far more sound in his doctrine than Jack and Rexella. As for your David Duke comment....that really dosen't deserve a responce. Do you belive that the end time's Babylon is literal?

I do not believe Babylon is literal. As I have stated, simply because two nut jobs accept a theory does not invalidate it. This belief is what the original church believed...you have done nothign to refute this because you can't refute it. The belief that the Church and Israel are synomous in eschatology is a purely ROman Catholic belief later brought into the Protestant belief by anti-semites. Even Martin Luther believes the Jews were still chosen...ironically this is what lead to his hatred of them.

Anyway, I do not believe the Left Behind books (poorly written and poor theology), I think Jack Van Impe is a nut (shouldn't my signature be obvious?), Hal Lindsay has made one too many predictions and you'd think he'd learn by now. I don't believe the Catholic church is the whore of Babylon, I don't believe we're living in the last of days, I don't even think Christ will return for another hundred, maybe thousand, years. One thing that I cannot deny biblically is that the Jews are chosen by God. If you read Jeremiah or any of the minor prophets concerning the dispersment of the "lost tribes" (Israel, the Northern Kingdom) all fo them speak of them returning one day...why would God be talking about the Jews at the beginning of a book but suddenly change at the end?

Well...A pox upon me for missing the "S". Is that against Levitical law or something?

When you've done it for three post one must believe it is intentional.

Are you living well here in the U.S..?

yes

Going hungry

Yes, I am actually.

If the U.S. ever attacks Israel? What paraniod fantacies are you allowing in to your head?

Bush came out today and all but supported Hamas...a terror group that is dedicated to the destruction of Jews world wide. Before I simply disagreed with Bush, now I am beginning to believe he is an anti-semite. To answer your question about John Kerry (that will inevitably come up), do I believe he would have protected Israel? At this point, he couldn't have been any worse for Israel.

As I pointed out...graveyards all over the world are full of AMERICAN soldiers who fought and died to give you the right to even openly say such things.

Yes, my grandfather, a JEW, fought for America in the Pacific. My grandfather on my mother's side fought in Europe. My father fought in Vietnam. Don't try to lecture me on what price freedom is bought at. All three of them swore alliegance to the US and fought for the US. However, I don't give a rat's behind what the US has done, if it ever turns on Israel while I draw breath, I will fight for Israel.

Your attitude is ungreatful beyond belief and if you acted on your words it would be treasonous. I know...

Then turn me in. When we get to heaven we shall see how much treason against the US and treason against God's chosen compare.

here it comes..." the Bible says that God is only on Israel's team and the only reason America and Americans exist is to kiss Israel's backside! So there!!".

Save your breath...Ive been hearing this Israel End Times stuff since I was a teenager 30 years ago. Its never been anything more than speculation and "pin the tail on the Anti-Christ".

The problem is you ahve not taken one iota of time to actually study the issue. Instead you equate it to the nuts who accept it. It is much easier to hate Jews than to actually study the information, isn't it?

Simple question, who was the book of Hosea written to?

[dgolvach]

No your wrong. God has bless the US because many of its citezens follow Christ and have felt it necessary to create a Government that reflects those beliefs. This Ideology is being attacked by those who you may well help to elect when you or others whine about Bush.[/quote

Do you not undersyand the difference between "many" and "all".

I do not believe Babylon is literal.

You mean it could be symbolic? what...scripture symbolic?Hmmmmm.

Bush came out today and all but supported Hamas...a terror group that is dedicated to the destruction of Jews world wide. Before I simply disagreed with Bush, now I am beginning to believe he is an anti-semite. To answer your question about John Kerry (that will inevitably come up), do I believe he would have protected Israel? At this point, he couldn't have been any worse for Israel

I wonder if Kerry would have gone out of his way to appoint the type of judges his very own party is trying to block. Its the domestic side of things that needs tweeking in this country.

Yes, my grandfather, a JEW, fought for America in the Pacific. My grandfather on my mother's side fought in Europe. My father fought in Vietnam. Don't try to lecture me on what price freedom is bought at. All three of them swore alliegance to the US and fought for the US. However, I don't give a rat's behind what the US has done, if it ever turns on Israel while I draw breath, I will fight for Israel.

As with my family and I am greatful to all of them. Mine and yours.

You don't give a rat's behind. Your words not mine.

Then turn me in. When we get to heaven we shall see how much treason against the US and treason against God's chosen compare

My salvation is based on what Christ did on the cross. Not your end time beliefs.

So is yours.

The problem is you ahve not taken one iota of time to actually study the issue. Instead you equate it to the nuts who accept it. It is much easier to hate Jews than to actually study the information, isn't it?

So to disagree with you is to hate Jews? I love Jews. I know many and most of them are great. I hope they come to accept Christ. Just because "Super Jew the magnificant" says I hate Jews dosen't make it so. I don't hate anyone. Arab or Jew. As a matter of fact I have met many Arabs that I think highly of. I don't care for what Islam teaches. I consider the main problem in the middle east to be Islamic in its orgin. Still, many Muslims are great and I hope they find Christ as well. For you to say I hate Jews is as silly as me saying you wish death to all Palestinians. It sounds like to me you should live in Israel because thats who you feel loyal to. Why wait?

Its real easy to throw the word anti-semite. " Dad Gummit! if you don't buy my version of the End Times which I know for a fact to be directly from God himself, why your a ...a dog gone Jew hater and your gonna burn in Hell". OK

[apothanein kerdos]

You are making this simply too easy.

You mean it could be symbolic? what...scripture symbolic?Hmmmmm.

So you are asserting that Jeremiah, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obediah, Michah, Nahum, and a whole host of others are simply symbolic? All contain scripture that makes promises to Judah and Israel...promises that have yet to be fulfilled. Pray tell, if the Church is Israel, then who is Judah? The Mormons?

I wonder if Kerry would have gone out of his way to appoint the type of judges his very own party is trying to block. Its the domestic side of things that needs tweeking in this country.

Kerry would have been horrible for the domestic side. I am, however, wondering who is worse for Israel, Bush or Kerry.

As with my family and I am greatful to all of them. Mine and yours.

You don't give a rat's behind. Your words not mine.

I can tell you that my father and both grandfathers agree with me.

My salvation is based on what Christ did on the cross. Not your end time beliefs.

So is yours.

However I certainly do not wish to be scorned by God for going against His chosen.

It sounds like to me you should live in Israel because thats who you feel loyal to. Why wait?

Apparently you have not grasped this concept that God has not called me there yet. You know who God is, correct?

You completely dropped the fact that the book of Hosea destroys your belief as does historical fact. The early church believed the Jews mentioned in the study of eschatology (which extends beyond Revelation and Daniel incase you were wondering) were literal Jews, not the church. It was not until the Roman Catholic church that we begin to see your belief. Care to respond, or can you?