Backslidden or Never Saved

[Faithwilldo]

7 hours ago, Marathoner said:

I don't expect for you to understand the role which the testimony of the saints serves, my friend. As it is written,

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. (Revelation 12:10-11)

I didn't choose Christ, He chose me. As for teachers, I have no need for the wisdom of men because the Spirit of the Lord is my teacher. I believe the words of God. Every one of them. 

I really like your comments above.  I needed a teacher many years ago but now, like you, I have no need for a teacher.  I learn directly from Christ and I too believe His words.  It is by His work that I can see and believe.  I am worthy of only death.  But in Him and because of His love, I have life.  Thank you for your testimony.

Joe

[Faithwilldo]

8 hours ago, Marathoner said:

I was born again after the Lord came to me the second time. Joe describes my testimony very well through what he has shared here. Precisely, in fact.

God's Spirit came to me decades ago declaring I was chosen. That this doesn't adhere to what others might believe is no fault of mine because this had nothing whatsoever to do with me. Salvation is not our work so we might boast, a truth we find expressed in the scriptures. 

Indeed, I struggled greatly with this for decades. I couldn't begin to understand why the Lord chose me and why His Spirit came to me out of the blue. I had to reach the end of myself --- this flesh --- to finally grasp that God does as He pleases (that's also expressed in the scriptures). That Christ chose to manifest His work in me has nothing to do with me. It's all about Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I'm certainly not the first the Lord chose in such a way. Consider the man born blind from the ninth chapter of the Gospel of John; the Lord chose to manifest His work in him. What did the blind man have to do with that?

God is worshiped in spirit and truth (John 4:23-24). Many things of a spiritual nature have been shared in this topic and I understand some struggle with that. I'm not here to debate nor engage in the back and forth that others enjoy, so that's all I have to say about the matter.  

Your comments are very uplifting.  Thank you for sharing them.

Joe

Edited September 9, 2020 by Faithwilldo

[David1701]

17 hours ago, Faithwilldo said:

We are not born of God until we receive the Early and Latter rain.  The Early rain is not enough for anyone to produce spiritual fruit.  We must have the Early AND Latter Rain.  

Jam 5:7-8  Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.  8  Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

James says a lot in these two verses and its meaning is hidden in spiritual language. 

Christ is the Husbandman who is a farmer.  The Precious Fruit of the Earth is the New Man in Christ who is to be harvested from the Earth.  The Earth represents the carnal & sinful world.  The farmer “hath long patience for it” because birthing many new Sons of God is a long process and is now just getting started with the harvest of the First-Fruits in this present age.

Christ even said:

Luke 12:49  I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!

“Fire” is a spiritual term for the judgment of God.  Without His judgment, no one would be saved.  In the above verse, Christ longs to start that process of judgment upon mankind (The Elect first, then all others) but the time was not yet at hand.  Since before the creation began, Christ has been waiting patiently for that day - the Day of the Lord.   It is no wonder that “patience” is one of the fruits of the Spirit.

At the end of verse 7, James says that the growing season for Christ’s harvest of mankind starts with the Early Rain.  It is at this point in time that a new believer will enter the Church.  The Early Rain represents the receiving of the down-payment of the Holy Spirit.  However, the Early Rain of the Spirit is not sufficient for us to grow to maturity and produce fruit.  We also need the Latter Rain which occurs when Christ “appears again” and baptizes us with His Spirit.  After the Baptism of the Spirit, we finally have the ability to see Christ and to know the Truth.  The sanctification process can then start so that we can grow to maturity and produce fruit.  

James’ main purpose for writing these two verses is to tell us to have “patience” because the creation of a Son of God takes time and does not happen until a person receives the Early and Latter rain of the Spirit.     

Here is another example:

John 8:3-10  And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,  4  They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.  5  Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?  6  This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.  7  So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.  8  And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.  9  And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.  10  When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

The woman represents mankind and the stones represent the Law of Moses.  Christ writes upon the ground the first time (Early Rain) to symbolize when He first writes His law in our hearts.  At that time, the Pharisees do not drop the stones because we are still under law.  Then Christ writes on the ground a second time (Latter Rain) and the Pharisees drop their stones.  The Law can no longer accuse us. 

Christ must come to us two times before we are saved.  That is why the second coming of Christ is so important.  It is not a visible return to earth at some future date.  It is a spiritual return to each of God's Elect.  It comes without observation and it comes "within" us.

Paul's conversion experience is our example that we must follow.  It also teaches the Early and Latter rain.

1Tim 1:16  Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.  

Paul receives the Early Rain on the Damascus Road and then three days later in Damascus, he receives the Latter Rain.

In Mark chapter 8:21-25, it too teaches the Early and Latter rain. 

Mark 8:22-25  And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him.  23  And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.  24  And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.  25  After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

Upon receiving the early rain, the blind man only sees "men walking as trees".  This represents beliefs that come from our carnality.  Upon receiving the Latter rain, the blind man then sees every man clearly.  That represents truth that comes from God.  We must have the Early and Latter rain before we are saved.  Many are called (Early Rain) but few are chosen (Early AND Latter Rain). 

The parable of the Ten Virgins teaches this concept again along with the parable of the Wheat and the Tares.  

Joe   

   

Oh boy!  You are making it up as you go along, aren't you?

[David1701]

11 hours ago, Marathoner said:

I don't expect for you to understand the role which the testimony of the saints serves, my friend. As it is written,

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. (Revelation 12:10-11)

I didn't choose Christ, He chose me. As for teachers, I have no need for the wisdom of men because the Spirit of the Lord is my teacher. I believe the words of God. Every one of them. 

If that is true, then you believe 1 John 3: 8,9; but it contradicts your testimony, so which is true?  I believe the word of God.  Do you believe it, even when it contradicts your perception of what has happened in your life?

1 John 3:8,9 (EMTV)

8 He who practices sin is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this reason the Son of God appeared, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 

[Faithwilldo]

21 hours ago, David1701 said:

Oh boy!  You are making it up as you go along, aren't you?

I have been teaching this truth of scripture for more than 12 years.  The verses that I have posted confirm my comments.  There are no contradictions with other scripture.  

As for your comments to Marathoner, they are completely misplaced.  The Old Man represents our carnal nature and it is he who commits the sin in our life.  Because it is the Old Man who sins, he must be destroyed (the penalty of sin is death).  The Old Man will travel the wide gate that leads to destruction.  As his destruction from Christ's judgment (fire) begins, the New Man (Christ in us) is born and will never sin.   These events happen when a fallen away "Called and Chosen" believer receives the Latter Rain of the Spirit.  The two spiritual natures co-exist for a time and that is why we still have sin in our life.  The sinful Old Man is being destroyed through judgment as the New Man grows and matures.  

John the Baptist is a "type" of our Old Man and he said this:

John 3:30  He must increase, but I must decrease.

As the New Man increases (grows and matures) within us, our Old Man slowly dies (crucified with Christ).  When we sin, it is the Old Man who commits the sin.  The New Man (born of God) is without sin because Christ is without sin.

Once Christ's judgment of the Old Man is complete, all that will be left is the New Man who does not sin.  That is why John the Baptist said "He must increase, but I must decrease".   And that is why John 3:9 says that the believer "cannot keep on sinning".  He will continue sinning for a time but eventually through Christ's judgment, the Old Man will be destroyed.  All that will be left is our new nature (New Man) and we will sin no more.  Christ will have cleaned the inside of our cup:

Mat 23:26  Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

The pathway that leads to destruction and the pathway that leads to life is how Christ cleans the inside of our cup.  It requires the Early and Latter Rains as James said.  It requires the destruction of our carnal nature and the birth of Christ's nature within us.  It will happen to every person who has ever lived.  The Elect who are the first fruits of Christ's harvest of mankind are FIRST to be saved.  All others will travel the two pathways in the final age.  Then these verses will be proven to be true:

1 Tim 2:3-6  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;  Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

1 Tim 4:10-11  For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.  These things command and teach.

Phi 2:10-11  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;  And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Acts 3:20-21  And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:  Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

The verses are very clear.  Why won't you accept them? 

Christ is ready to give you the necessary gifts (faith, love for the truth, etc.) to believe Him if you would only ask:

Luke 11:9-13  And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.  10  For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.  11  If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?  12  Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?  13  If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? 

Joe

 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2020 by Faithwilldo

[David1701]

3 hours ago, Faithwilldo said:

I have been teaching this truth of scripture for more than 12 years.  The verses that I have posted confirm my comments.  There are no contradictions with other scripture.  

As for your comments to Marathoner, they are completely misplaced.  The Old Man represents our carnal nature and it is he who commits the sin in our life.  Because it is the Old Man who sins, he must be destroyed (the penalty of sin is death).  The Old Man will travel the wide gate that leads to destruction.  As his destruction from Christ's judgment (fire) begins, the New Man (Christ in us) is born and will never sin.   These events happen when a fallen away "Called and Chosen" believer receives the Latter Rain of the Spirit.  The two spiritual natures co-exist for a time and that is why we still have sin in our life.  The sinful Old Man is being destroyed through judgment as the New Man grows and matures.  

John the Baptist is a "type" of our Old Man and he said this:

John 3:30  He must increase, but I must decrease.

As the New Man increases (grows and matures) within us, our Old Man slowly dies (crucified with Christ).  When we sin, it is the Old Man who commits the sin.  The New Man (born of God) is without sin because Christ is without sin.

Once Christ's judgment of the Old Man is complete, all that will be left is the New Man who does not sin.  That is why John the Baptist said "He must increase, but I must decrease".   And that is why John 3:9 says that the believer "cannot keep on sinning".  He will continue sinning for a time but eventually through Christ's judgment, the Old Man will be destroyed.  All that will be left is our new nature (New Man) and we will sin no more.  Christ will have cleaned the inside of our cup:

Mat 23:26  Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

The pathway that leads to destruction and the pathway that leads to life is how Christ cleans the inside of our cup.  It requires the Early and Latter Rains as James said.  It requires the destruction of our carnal nature and the birth of Christ's nature within us.  It will happen to every person who has ever lived.  The Elect who are the first fruits of Christ's harvest of mankind are FIRST to be saved.  All others will travel the two pathways in the final age.  Then these verses will be proven to be true:

1 Tim 2:3-6  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;  Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

1 Tim 4:10-11  For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.  These things command and teach.

Phi 2:10-11  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;  And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Acts 3:20-21  And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:  Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

The verses are very clear.  Why won't you accept them? 

Christ is ready to give you the necessary gifts (faith, love for the truth, etc.) to believe Him if you would only ask:

Luke 11:9-13  And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.  10  For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.  11  If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?  12  Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?  13  If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? 

Joe

 

 

 

You have completely misunderstood the symbolism of early and latter rain.  You have also assumed, contrary to Scripture, that everyone will be saved, when, in fact, many will spend eternity in hell, where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.

Universalism is anti-Christian.

Edited September 10, 2020 by David1701

[Faithwilldo]

1 hour ago, David1701 said:

You have completely misunderstood the symbolism of early and latter rain.  You have also assumed, contrary to Scripture, that everyone will be saved, when, in fact, many will spend eternity in hell, where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.

Universalism is anti-Christian.

If you won't accept the verses I posted as God's truth, then there is nothing more I can do.  

Joe

[David1701]

1 hour ago, Faithwilldo said:

If you won't accept the verses I posted as God's truth, then there is nothing more I can do.  

Joe

I believe those verses (and any other verse you might care to quote); but, I don't accept your misinterpretation of them.  Do you understand the difference?

[Faithwilldo]

4 hours ago, David1701 said:

I believe those verses (and any other verse you might care to quote); but, I don't accept your misinterpretation of them.  Do you understand the difference?

One more try:

1 Tim 2:3-6  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;  Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

1 Tim 4:10-11  For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.  These things command and teach.

Phi 2:10-11  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;  And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Acts 3:20-21  And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:  Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Here is what you believe these verses are saying:

1 Tim 2:3-6  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will NOT have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;  Who gave himself a ransom for a few, to be testified in due time.

1 Tim 4:10-11  For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of a few men, specially of those that believe.  These things command and teach.

Phi 2:10-11  That at the name of Jesus a few knees should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;  And that a few tongues should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Acts 3:20-21  And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:  Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of a few things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

How would Christ have to construct a sentence for you to believe that He is going to save all men?

If Christ is not going to save everyone, then why do the verses in their original form say that He is?  

Do you believe that Christ took take away the sins of the world as John the Baptist said?

John 1:29  The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

If the sins of the world are taken away, how can you believe that only some of the world is going to be saved?

 1John 4:14   And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Since the Father sent Christ to be the Savior of the world, how can He fail since God never fails?  Don't you see that you are bringing God down to the level of a man?  

Here is the power of God:

Isa 55:11  So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Job 23:13  But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do. 

Isa 46:10-11  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:  Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Dan 4:35  And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?  

2 Chron 20:6  and he said, Jehovah, God of our fathers, art not thou God in the heavens, and rulest thou not over all the kingdoms of the nations? And in thy hand there is power and might, and none can withstand thee. 

Joe

 

Edited September 11, 2020 by Faithwilldo

[David1701]

16 hours ago, Faithwilldo said:

One more try:

1 Tim 2:3-6  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;  Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

1 Tim 4:10-11  For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.  These things command and teach.

Phi 2:10-11  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;  And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Acts 3:20-21  And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:  Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Here is what you believe these verses are saying:

1 Tim 2:3-6  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will NOT have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;  Who gave himself a ransom for a few, to be testified in due time.

1 Tim 4:10-11  For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of a few men, specially of those that believe.  These things command and teach.

Phi 2:10-11  That at the name of Jesus a few knees should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;  And that a few tongues should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Acts 3:20-21  And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:  Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of a few things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

How would Christ have to construct a sentence for you to believe that He is going to save all men?

If Christ is not going to save everyone, then why do the verses in their original form say that He is?  

Do you believe that Christ took take away the sins of the world as John the Baptist said?

John 1:29  The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

If the sins of the world are taken away, how can you believe that only some of the world is going to be saved?

 1John 4:14   And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Since the Father sent Christ to be the Savior of the world, how can He fail since God never fails?  Don't you see that you are bringing God down to the level of a man?  

Here is the power of God:

Isa 55:11  So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Job 23:13  But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do. 

Isa 46:10-11  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:  Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Dan 4:35  And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?  

2 Chron 20:6  and he said, Jehovah, God of our fathers, art not thou God in the heavens, and rulest thou not over all the kingdoms of the nations? And in thy hand there is power and might, and none can withstand thee. 

Joe

 

Alright, I'll explain it to you.

Quote

 

Here is what you believe these verses are saying:

1 Tim 2:3-6  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will NOT have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;  Who gave himself a ransom for a few, to be testified in due time.

 

No, that is not what I believe.  Have you ever heard of context?

1 Tim. 2:1-6 (EMTV)

1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made on behalf of all people,
2 on behalf of kings and all those who are in authority, that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.
3 For this is good and acceptable before God our Savior,
4 who desires all people to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and there is one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony in due time;

In verse 1, the "all people" clearly means "all people without distinction", not "every person without exception".  This is confirmed in verse 2 (these are the two verses that set the context and which you omitted...), in which we see that categories of people are mentioned, not individuals.

In verse 4, the previously established context means that "all people" means "all categories of people", not "every individual without exception".  The same goes for the "all", in verse 6.

Quote

1 Tim 4:10-11  For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of a few men, specially of those that believe.  These things command and teach.

Wrong again!  That is also not what I believe.

God is the Saviour of all men, especially of those who believe.  The word "especially" is a word denoting degree; in other words, those who believe are saved to a greater degree than those who do not.  How are men "saved" who do not believe?  They are "saved" with deliverances from physical death, from sicknesses, from famines, from natural disasters, etc.; but they are not saved from sin and hell.

Quote

Phi 2:10-11  That at the name of Jesus a few knees should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;  And that a few tongues should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Strike three!  You're out!

Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord - some willingly and some unwillingly.  The goats will do it with gnashing of teeth and hatred in their hearts, the sheep will do it in faith, with love in their hearts.