Backslidden or Never Saved

[Marathoner]

On 9/9/2020 at 11:24 AM, David1701 said:

If that is true, then you believe 1 John 3: 8,9; but it contradicts your testimony, so which is true?  I believe the word of God.  Do you believe it, even when it contradicts your perception of what has happened in your life?

1 John 3:8,9 (EMTV)

8 He who practices sin is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this reason the Son of God appeared, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 

I don't expect for you to understand because if you did, then you wouldn't stand as the accuser of your neighbor. "And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." (Luke 6:31)

Clearly, if you knew me and believed the words of my testimony then you would know the truth. I've shared this testimony and the fruit of your judgment is revealed in the accusation. "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." (Matthew 7:2) 

You relish contentious debate but I abstain from such argumentation for nothing worthwhile is to be gained thereby. Fare well.  

[David1701]

Just now, Marathoner said:

I don't expect for you to understand because if you did, then you wouldn't stand as the accuser of your neighbor. "And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." (Luke 6:31)

Clearly, if you knew me and believed the words of my testimony then you would know the truth. I've shared this testimony and the fruit of your judgment is revealed in the accusation. "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." (Matthew 7:2) 

You relish contentious debate but I abstain from such argumentation for nothing worthwhile is to be gained thereby. Fare well.  

I do understand; and the only thing I've "accused" you of is misinterpreting your experience.  If I had made a similar mistake, then I would hope that a brother in Christ would correct me.

I did not say that your testimony is untrue.  I said that your perception of what happened to you is contradicted by what the Bible says.  This is one of the reasons why we must get our teaching from the Bible and not from our interpretations of what happens.

I do not relish contentious debate; in fact, I find it stressful; but I also find that the Holy Spirit constrains me at times, so that I cannot hold in the word of God, when I see error.

I believe that you are a genuine brother in Christ.  I care enough about you, as a brother, to point out a serious error in your understanding of Christianity, an error that could affect others, since you share your testimony and your understanding of it.

You are the one censoriously judging me, not vice versa; but I forgive you and I pray that you will come to see that I posted is true.  Here it is again, in context, for anyone who reads this; it is not my opinion, but the word of God.

1 John 3:7-10 (EMTV)

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
8 He who practices sin is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this reason the Son of God appeared, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Everyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

If someone has been saved (not merely enlightened, not merely convicted of sin, not merely given mental or emotional assent to the gospel, but actually saved), then he CANNOT revert to a life characterised by sin.  This is what the Bible states, so any interpretation of our experience that contradicts it is a misinterpretation.

[Marathoner]

We should take care in how we judge, remembering the example of our Lord from the 8th chapter of the Gospel of John. When the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery before Him, they sought to lay a snare for the Son of God.

They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
(verses 4-7 KJV)

Mercy is the greater measure of justice. If we stand as the accuser of our brethren, even our neighbor, and we judge without mercy then what shall we receive from our Father in heaven who forgives us of much? Consider the parable of the unforgiving servant from Matthew 18.

God desires mercy.

Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment. (James 2:12-13 NASB)

Edited September 11, 2020 by Marathoner

[David1701]

10 minutes ago, Marathoner said:

We should take care in how we judge, remembering the example of our Lord from the 8th chapter of the Gospel of John. When the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery before Him, they sought to lay a snare for the Son of God.

They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
(verses 4-7 KJV)

Mercy is the greater measure of justice. If we stand as the accuser of our brethren, even our neighbor, and we judge without mercy then what shall we receive from our Father in heaven who forgives us of much? Consider the parable of the unforgiving servant from Matthew 18.

God desires mercy.

Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment. (James 2:12-13 NASB)

What did I accuse you of, Marathoner?  Only of misinterpreting your experience (and that conclusion is inescapable, if you believe the Scripture I quoted).  That is hardly merciless judgment....

What would you say about someone who accuses another Christian of indulging in merciless judgment, when that Christian has done no such thing?

Edited September 11, 2020 by David1701

[Faithwilldo]

3 hours ago, David1701 said:

Alright, I'll explain it to you.

No, that is not what I believe.  Have you ever heard of context?

1 Tim. 2:1-6 (EMTV)

1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made on behalf of all people,
2 on behalf of kings and all those who are in authority, that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.
3 For this is good and acceptable before God our Savior,
4 who desires all people to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and there is one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony in due time;

In verse 1, the "all people" clearly means "all people without distinction", not "every person without exception".  This is confirmed in verse 2 (these are the two verses that set the context and which you omitted...), in which we see that categories of people are mentioned, not individuals.

In verse 4, the previously established context means that "all people" means "all categories of people", not "every individual without exception".  The same goes for the "all", in verse 6.

Wrong again!  That is also not what I believe.

God is the Saviour of all men, especially of those who believe.  The word "especially" is a word denoting degree; in other words, those who believe are saved to a greater degree than those who do not.  How are men "saved" who do not believe?  They are "saved" with deliverances from physical death, from sicknesses, from famines, from natural disasters, etc.; but they are not saved from sin and hell.

Strike three!  You're out!

Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord - some willingly and some unwillingly.  The goats will do it with gnashing of teeth and hatred in their hearts, the sheep will do it in faith, with love in their hearts.

You said:

No, that is not what I believe.  Have you ever heard of context?

What you state about "context" does not make sense.  The verse still means all mankind - especially if the word "will" is changed to "desire".  But as I pointed out before, God gets everything He desires because He is God.

You said:

God is the Saviour of all men, especially of those who believe.  The word "especially" is a word denoting degree; in other words, those who believe are saved to a greater degree than those who do not.  How are men "saved" who do not believe?  They are "saved" with deliverances from physical death, from sicknesses, from famines, from natural disasters, etc.; but they are not saved from sin and hell.

Those who believe in this age are chosen by God.  They are the Elect, the First Fruits of God's harvest.  Those who do not believe now, will believe later (Phil 2:10-11) at the end of the age.  All will still be saved.  Those not chosen to be saved now will not receive the blessing of being an heir BUT they will still be saved.  This group will be 99%+++ of all mankind.  

1Cor 3:13-15  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Fire represents the judgment of Christ.  From judgment, mankind is saved.

You said:

Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord - some willingly and some unwillingly.  The goats will do it with gnashing of teeth and hatred in their hearts, the sheep will do it in faith, with love in their hearts.

You have twisted the verses to mean something that they are not saying.  How could it give "glory" to the Father to force people to confess that Jesus is Lord??? I heard John Hagee say that if God needs to, He will break the legs of those "unwilling" to bow and confess that Jesus is Lord.  How sick is that!   Also, scripture says that no man can say Jesus is Lord except by the power of the Holy Spirit.  A forced confession is no confession at all.  And you believe that false confession will give glory to the Father??? 

1 Cor 12:3  Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

It seems that there is no way that Christ can write scripture in such a way as to cause you to believe that He is actually the Savior of the world.  Salvation is 100% the work of Christ.  You have added the false doctrine of Free Will  that causes mankind to contribute to Christ's work.  Otherwise, there is no way for you to justify the existence of your fabled hell.  After all, if salvation is really 100% the work of Christ, how can Christ send anyone to hell for His failure to save them???  Your doctrine of Free Will causes those who believe it to be self-righteous.  Their "wisdom" or "intelligence" is why they are saved.  And as for those not saved, well, they were just to evil or to stupid to be saved. 

You have made the confession of faith a "work".  That is the sin that leads to death.  

According to scripture, here is the cause of our confession of faith.  

Phil 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Prov 16:1  The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24  Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Our confession of faith is the work of Christ.  It is not our work.    

Joe

 

 

Edited September 11, 2020 by Faithwilldo

[David1701]

2 hours ago, Faithwilldo said:

You said:

No, that is not what I believe.  Have you ever heard of context?

What you state about "context" does not make sense.  The verse still means all mankind - especially if the word "will" is changed to "desire".  But as I pointed out before, God gets everything He desires because He is God.

You said:

God is the Saviour of all men, especially of those who believe.  The word "especially" is a word denoting degree; in other words, those who believe are saved to a greater degree than those who do not.  How are men "saved" who do not believe?  They are "saved" with deliverances from physical death, from sicknesses, from famines, from natural disasters, etc.; but they are not saved from sin and hell.

Those who believe in this age are chosen by God.  They are the Elect, the First Fruits of God's harvest.  Those who do not believe now, will believe later (Phil 2:10-11) at the end of the age.  All will still be saved.  Those not chosen to be saved now will not receive the blessing of being an heir BUT they will still be saved.  This group will be 99%+++ of all mankind.  

1Cor 3:13-15  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Fire represents the judgment of Christ.  From judgment, mankind is saved.

You said:

Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord - some willingly and some unwillingly.  The goats will do it with gnashing of teeth and hatred in their hearts, the sheep will do it in faith, with love in their hearts.

You have twisted the verses to mean something that they are not saying.  How could it give "glory" to the Father to force people to confess that Jesus is Lord??? I heard John Hagee say that if God needs to, He will break the legs of those "unwilling" to bow and confess that Jesus is Lord.  How sick is that!   Also, scripture says that no man can say Jesus is Lord except by the power of the Holy Spirit.  A forced confession is no confession at all.  And you believe that false confession will give glory to the Father??? 

1 Cor 12:3  Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

It seems that there is no way that Christ can write scripture in such a way as to cause you to believe that He is actually the Savior of the world.  Salvation is 100% the work of Christ.  You have added the false doctrine of Free Will  that causes mankind to contribute to Christ's work.  Otherwise, there is no way for you to justify the existence of your fabled hell.  After all, if salvation is really 100% the work of Christ, how can Christ send anyone to hell for His failure to save them???  Your doctrine of Free Will causes those who believe it to be self-righteous.  Their "wisdom" or "intelligence" is why they are saved.  And as for those not saved, well, they were just to evil or to stupid to be saved. 

You have made the confession of faith a "work".  That is the sin that leads to death.  

According to scripture, here is the cause of our confession of faith.  

Phil 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Prov 16:1  The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24  Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Our confession of faith is the work of Christ.  It is not our work.    

Joe

 

 

I didn't think it would do any good; but you can't say I didn't tell you.

By the way, I don't believe in "free will", so you have not only misunderstood the Bible, but my post as well.

[Faithwilldo]

19 hours ago, David1701 said:

I didn't think it would do any good; but you can't say I didn't tell you.

By the way, I don't believe in "free will", so you have not only misunderstood the Bible, but my post as well.

How can you believe in the doctrine of hell but not the doctrine of free will?  I have never heard of anyone who believes as you do. 

So you believe that Christ is going to send people to "hell" solely because He didn't do His work within them???  Was Christ lazy or was He just forgetful? 

If mankind doesn't have a free will (which is true), why do you believe Christ is going to fail to save them?  Did Christ lie in these verses below?

John 12:32  And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Before you say that the Father didn't give everything to Christ and that is why some are not saved, look at this verse:

John 3:35  The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

Why do you not believe these verses? 

Christ is the Savior of the world and it is His work to save us.  From your perspective, how can you believe in a god who fails to do what He says He will do?  Can't you see that the Christ you are following is not the Christ taught in scripture?  The Christ of scripture is loving, kind, gentle, forgiving and merciful.  His judgment is for our betterment and it teaches us righteousness.  He would never harm us as the doctrine of hell describes.

Why do you believe Christ will not save all His children in light of the fact that He has the power to do so?  Why does He save a few but ignores most of mankind?  And those whom He ignores, He also punishes in fire for all eternity???  It makes no sense.  Why would a good and loving God do such a thing?  Where is His good and loving purpose in your doctrine of hell?

Joe

Edited September 12, 2020 by Faithwilldo

[IAMinyou]

On 8/12/2019 at 6:06 AM, ReneeIW said:

How do you know if someone has backslid or was never truly saved in the first place? 

John says is 1 John 3:9 

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
 

So, if a professing Christian goes through a period of time where they revert to their old sinful ways, how do we know if they are backslidden or not truly saved?

 

All men were born ( created )  in the image of our Father known as the Word of God, both male and female. No created MAN can sin in the next generation after their VISIBLE human bodies perish during this temporary generation. 

 

Genesis 1
26: Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." 
27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 

[David1701]

4 hours ago, Faithwilldo said:

How can you believe in the doctrine of hell but not the doctrine of free will?  I have never heard of anyone who believes as you do. 

Christians believe in hell (because it is very clearly taught, in the Bible).  There are many who also do not believe in "free will" (well, not Libertarian Free Will anyway), because the Bible says that we are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness.

What you believe is something called "Universalism", which is an anti-Christian heresy.  Teaching that every single person will be saved is contradicted by numerous scriptures.

Quote

So you believe that Christ is going to send people to "hell" solely because He didn't do His work within them???  Was Christ lazy or was He just forgetful?

Those who go to hell, do so because of their sins.  They are wicked-doers who have not repented and have not believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who is the only way of salvation.

Quote

If mankind doesn't have a free will (which is true), why do you believe Christ is going to fail to save them?  Did Christ lie in these verses below?

Since Adam fell, man's default condition is one of rebellion against God, hostility towards God, hatred of the light and rejection of the things of the Spirit of God.  It is amazing that God saves any of us, not that he leaves some in the sin they love.

Quote

John 12:32  And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The word "men" is not in the original, it was added by the translators.

John 12:32 (VW) And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself.

Jesus drew "all" to himself, when he was crucified; but all of whom: all kinds of people; all people groups; all of the elect; all people without exception?  The question is not answered in this verse.

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

This verse, which you quoted, does give the answer: all that the Father gives to Jesus, come to him.  It is very clear that not everyone comes to Jesus; in fact, the large majority do not (Muslims, Hindus, Seikhs, atheists, agnostics, etc.).

Quote

 

Before you say that the Father didn't give everything to Christ and that is why some are not saved, look at this verse:

John 3:35  The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

 

You keep proof-texting, without any attempt to look at the context.  The very next verse, after the one you quoted, refutes your position.

John 3:35,36 (VW)

35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand.
36 The one believing into the Son has eternal life; but the one disobeying the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

Verse 35 talks about Jesus being in authority. 

Verse 36 shows the dichotomy: those who believe in Jesus Christ have eternal life; but those those who disobey (i.e. disbelieve) will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on them.

Quote

Why do you not believe these verses?

I believe them and understand them.  You believe your woeful misinterpretation of them, which means that you really do not believe them at all.

Quote

Christ is the Savior of the world and it is His work to save us.  From your perspective, how can you believe in a god who fails to do what He says He will do?  Can't you see that the Christ you are following is not the Christ taught in scripture?  The Christ of scripture is loving, kind, gentle, forgiving and merciful.  His judgment is for our betterment and it teaches us righteousness.  He would never harm us as the doctrine of hell describes.

I want everyone who reads this, to pay special attention to what this poster has posted here.  This is a WOLF in sheep's clothing, teaching another Jesus, and accusing Christians of teaching a false Jesus.  This is exactly what I was referring to, in my recent thread, in General Discussion.

Does anyone care that this WOLF is prowling around in the sheep pen?  It doesn't look like it...

No born again Christian will accept your false "Jesus", so BE GONE, in Jesus' name!

Edited September 12, 2020 by David1701
typo

[Faithwilldo]

36 minutes ago, David1701 said:

Christians believe in hell (because it is very clearly taught, in the Bible).  There are many who also do not believe in "free will" (well, not Libertarian Free Will anyway), because the Bible says that we are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness.

What you believe is something called "Universalism", which is an anti-Christian heresy.  Teaching that every single person will be saved is contradicted by numerous scriptures.

Those who go to hell, do so because of theirs sins.  They are wicked-doers who have not repented and have not believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who is the only way of salvation.

Since Adam fell, man's default condition is one of rebellion against God, hostility towards God, hatred of the light and rejection of the things of the Spirit of God.  It is amazing that God saves any of us, not that he leaves some in the sin they love.

The word "men" is not in the original, it was added by the translators.

John 12:32 (VW) And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself.

Jesus drew "all" to himself, when he was crucified; but all of whom: all kinds of people; all people groups; all of the elect; all people without exception?  The question is not answered in this verse.

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

This verse, which you quoted, does give the answer: all that the Father gives to Jesus, come to him.  It is very clear that not everyone comes to Jesus; in fact, the large majority do not (Muslims, Hindus, Seikhs, atheists, agnostics, etc.).

You keep proof-texting, without any attempt to look at the context.  The very next verse, after the one you quoted, refutes your position.

John 3:35,36 (VW)

35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand.
36 The one believing into the Son has eternal life; but the one disobeying the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

Verse 35 talks about Jesus being in authority. 

Verse 36 shows the dichotomy: those who believe in Jesus Christ have eternal life; but those those who disobey (i.e. disbelieve) will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on them.

I believe them and understand them.  You believe your woeful misinterpretation of them, which means that you really do not believe them at all.

I want everyone who reads this, to pay special attention to what this poster has posted here.  This is a WOLF in sheep's clothing, teaching another Jesus, and accusing Christians of teaching a false Jesus.  This is exactly what I was referring to, in my recent thread, in General Discussion.

Does anyone care that this WOLF is prowling around in the sheep pen?  It doesn't look like it...

No born again Christian will accept your false "Jesus", so BE GONE, in Jesus' name!

You do not understand judgment.  Judgment is a necessary part of our salvation.  The verses you use to say that Christ is not going to save all mankind are ONLY talking about judgment.  The verses that I use are the ones which teach who will be saved and without exception, they all say "all men" or words to that effect.  You believe that judgment is horrible and non-redeeming but scripture teaches the opposite.  Judgment is good and necessary for our salvation.  Until you can understand that truth, you will never understand who Christ is.

Context is not very important when it comes to understanding the truth of God.  Here is why:

Isa 28: 10-12  For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:  11  For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.  12  But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

1Cor 2:13  These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Truth is given to us in bits and pieces.  Christ does it this way so the knowledge of God cannot be understood by anyone except to whom it is revealed.  Also, scripture is written in the spiritual language of Christ.  A sword does not mean a literal sword.  It means the Word of God.  Likewise, "fire" does not mean literal fire but represents God's righteous and true judgment.  Scripture is written this way so that the knowledge of God remains hidden from all but those chosen to understand it.  Christ is not trying to save anyone else at this time.  He is ONLY bringing in the First Fruits of His harvest during this present age.  The full harvest, like any farmer will tell you, comes at the end of the harvest season.  We must have patience to wait on the Lord to do His work. 

You call me a "wolf" but it is you who believe and teach that Christ is a failed Savior.  And instead of death being the penalty of sin, you have switched it to be eternal torment in literal fire.  When did the Law change???  

The truth that we are told to spread to the world is truly good news for the world but you have turned it into the things of nightmares.  It is no wonder that most of the world wants no part of it. 

Obviously, you cannot see the truth that I see so there is no since to continuing this discussion.  I truly wish I could help you but the Lord simply has not prepared your heart to receive my labor of love.

Joe