Prove/Disprove my theory

[jc49]

Here is a theory set up like a logic proof in regards to free will and God's omniscience.  Please feel free to criticize or explain how it would be false. This is all in terms of christianity and the bible.

Given:

God is omnipotent

God is omniscient

We have free-will

Agree? OK, good.  Here goes:

God is omniscient (all-knowing), meaning there is absolutely nothing he does not know past, present, and future.  As humans on this earth, we have the ability to make the choices we want that will either lead us into heaven or hell.  To reject Jesus Christ as God's son and our Lord and Savior will result in a trip to hell.  When God wants to create a new soul (let's call him Bob), he knows what choices Bob will make before he makes them.  Realize Bob is still making the choices because of his free-will and God is just watching knowing what he'll decide.  God always knew what Bob will decide all the way until he dies and knows wether he'll end up in heaven or hell.  Let's say Bob is a christian and like your average christian goes through many phases of his relationship to his faith such as being saved, backsliding, re-dedicating his life to christ, backsliding, losing faith in christianity, re-dedicating his life (you know what I'm talkin about  ).  Unfortunately, when Bob dies he made the wrong choice and ends up in hell. Bob, near the end of his life permanently rejected God and Jesus Christ as his personal savior. Now, God KNEW that Bob would end up in hell for eternity before he even created him. To say that God didn't know would be taking knowledge from God making his omniscient status a falsehood. So, God MUST have known what choices Bob would make and where he would end up. To me, this makes God an evil God. Why would he have created a soul knowing it would inevitably be in an eternal fiery furnace. So full of love to create a being he KNEW would end up in the pyrotechnic playground. Why? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok I'll answer you friend with:

Praising God

Praise is a natural response to God which happens as a result of knowing God. The Bible is filled with references to praising God. Praise must be expressed with words. Worship can be expressed by words or actions.

The dictionary says praise originally meant to set a price on or appraise. The dictionary gives meanings of: to commend the worth of; express approval or admiration of, to laud the glory of (God, etc.), as in song; glorify; extol.

Who

PSALM 150:6 NKJ

6 Let everything that has breath praise the Lord. Praise the Lord!

PSALM 113:1 NKJ

1 Praise the Lord! Praise, O servants of the Lord, Praise the name of the Lord!

Why

1) Because God deserves praise.

PSALM 48:1 NKJ

1 Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised . . . .

REVELATION 4:11 NKJ

11 "You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and honor and power; For You created all things, And by Your will they exist and were created."

PSALM 136:1 NKJ

1 Oh, give thanks to the Lord, for He is good! For His mercy endures forever.

PSALM 107:15 NKJ

15 Oh, that men would give thanks to the Lord for His goodness, And for His wonderful works to the children of men!

2) Because it is beneficial for us.

PSALM 135:3 NKJ

3 Praise the Lord, for the Lord is good; Sing praises to His name, for it is pleasant.

Praising God gets our eyes off ourselves and our problems and gets our eyes on God. When you think God is small, then your problems look large. But when you are reminded that God is mighty, then your problem looks very small for Him to fix.

Praise releases faith, which causes God to move on your behalf.

PSALM 8:2 NKJ

2 Out of the mouth of babes and infants You have ordained strength, Because of Your enemies, That You may silence the enemy and the avenger.

Praise changes the spiritual climate.

2 CHRONICLES 5:13-14 NKJ

13 indeed it came to pass, when the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the Lord, and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of music, and praised the Lord, saying: "For He is good, For His mercy endures forever," that the house, the house of the Lord, was filled with a cloud,

14 so that the priests could not continue ministering because of the cloud; for the glory of the Lord filled the house of God.

PSALM 22:3 NKJ

3 But You are holy, Who inhabit the praises of Israel.

God inhabits, or lives in, an atmosphere of praise. So, if you desire God to manifest His presence and blessings, create an atmosphere of praise.

MATTHEW 21:15-16 NKJ

15 But when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that He did, and the children crying out in the temple and saying, "Hosanna to the Son of David!" they were indignant

16 and said to Him, "Do You hear what these are saying?" And Jesus said to them, "Yes. Have you never read, `Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants You have perfected praise'?"

1 PETER 2:9 NKJ

9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

When

PSALM 34:1 NKJ

1 I will bless the Lord at all times; His praise shall continually be in my mouth.

PSALM 63:3-4 NKJ

3 Because Your lovingkindness is better than life, My lips shall praise You.

4 Thus I will bless You while I live; I will lift up my hands in Your name.

PSALM 113:2-3 NKJ

2 Blessed be the name of the Lord From this time forth and forevermore!

3 From the rising of the sun to its going down The Lord's name is to be praised.

HEBREWS 13:15 NKJ

15 Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name.

PHILIPPIANS 4:4 NKJ

4 Rejoice in the Lord always. Again I will say, rejoice!

How

PSALM 9:1-2 NKJ

1 I will praise You, O Lord, with my whole heart; I will tell of all Your marvelous works.

2 I will be glad and rejoice in You; I will sing praise to Your name, O Most High.

PSALM 150:2-5 NKJ

2 Praise Him for His mighty acts; Praise Him according to His excellent greatness!

3 Praise Him with the sound of the trumpet; Praise Him with the lute and harp!

4 Praise Him with the timbrel and dance; Praise Him with stringed instruments and flutes!

5 Praise Him with loud cymbals; Praise Him with high sounding cymbals!

PSALM 100:1,2,4 NKJ

1 Make a joyful shout to the Lord, all you lands!

2 Serve the Lord with gladness; Come before His presence with singing.

4 Enter into His gates with thanksgiving, And into His courts with praise. Be thankful to Him, and bless His name.

2 CORINTHIANS 10:17 NIV

17 But, "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

Where

PSALM 134:1-2 NKJ

1 Behold, bless the Lord, All you servants of the Lord, Who by night stand in the house of the Lord!

2 Lift up your hands in the sanctuary, And bless the Lord.

PSALM 135:1-2 NKJ

1 Praise the Lord! Praise the name of the Lord; Praise Him, O you servants of the Lord!

2 You who stand in the house of the Lord, In the courts of the house of our God,

Since the resurrection of Jesus Christ, the dwelling of God on earth has been in believers. So, wherever a believer is at is where God should be praised.

1 CORINTHIANS 6:19-20 NKJ

19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 PETER 2:5 NKJ

5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

PSALM 150:6 NKJ

6 Let everything that has breath praise the Lord. Praise the Lord!

You see man, the moment that the Bible declares at least once that GOD IS GOOD and HIS GOODNESS ENDURES FOR EVER....means EXACTLY THAT!

The Scripture CANNOT BE BROKEN...neither changed or altered...

The Scriptures are GOD's OWN DECLARATION OF THE TRUTH...and JESUS HIMSELF Whon is THE WORD of GOD INCARNATE ,HE IS THE TRUTH...so your question about God being EVIL falls ...THE QUESTION CANNOT STAND on ITS OWN LEGS! because from GENESIS to REVELATION you can read THAT GOD IS GOOD and HIS GOODNESS ENDURES FOR EVER....

I tell you who IS EVIL....."Apollion,Abbadon,Satan,The Old Serpent,THE FATHER of LIES,THE DEVIL,THE DRAGON....THE FALLEN ONE!!!!"

Be careful friend...DON'T PLAY with FIRE....stop FOOLING YOURSELF and playing "PHILOSPHER and BIG THINKER"...I say to you in TRUE christian LOVE...STOP FOOLING AROUND and REPENT ...GO TO GOD and REPENT of all this junk and you'll find that GOD IS GOOD and LOVES YOU and REALLY doesn't want at all that you END UP in THE LAKE OF FIRE FOR ETERNITY! I REPEAT: E T E R N I T Y.......IN JESUS NAME I IMPLORE YOU: REPENT and SAVE YOUR SOUL BY TRUSTING IN JESUS as YOUR LORD and SAVIOUR otherwise YOU WILL GO TO HELL,notwhitstanding that THE FATHER GAVE JESUS FOR YOU...DO YOU READ ME? FOR YOU...DO YOU READ ME? FOR YOU........but EVEN GOD with ALL HIS MIGHT will not go against YOUR WILL...I exhort you: REPENT before is too late!

ARE YOU SO SURE THAT YOU WILL SEE THE LIGHT OF THE DAY TOMORROW?WHAT ABOUT IF YOUR LIFE WILL BE REQUIRED TONIGHT? WHY END UP IN THE EVERLASTING DAMNATION of HELL with satan and his followers? WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU? ARE YOU CRAZY?

R E P E N T...seriously,I mean it,in JESUS NAME.

AMEN

Your friend in Jesus ROBERTO( a dirty sinner saved BY GRACE and FAITH in JESUS CHRIST WHO IS GOOD and LOVES YOU TOO!)

[Guest tsauder]

Hi Agnostic!

Man, we sound like the same person except I have found a way to answer these questions with the Bible that still allow me to sleep at night

First of all, I know where you are coming from. In my "fundamentalist" days I had to answer your questions with things like "Well, God can do what He wants" or "Some vessels are fitted for wrath" or "Does the hammer tell the one wielding it how to be used?"..things like that.

I think one of the assumptions you are holding is that:

a) people who don't believe in Jesus go to Hell

- there is debate within the church over this, it is by no means a doctrine on which all Christian churches hold the same opinion. Some would argue (from scripture) that Hell is a place designed for Satan and his angels and not Humankind. You can believe that non-Believers do not go to Hell and still be a "Christian" because, quite frankly, the Bible is quite ambiguous and unclear on a LOT of issues like this.

b) Hell is a literal "lake of fire".

- again, some people believe that this was a metaphorical description of how unpleasant Hell is for us because it represents the pain of dissociation from the Creator. Even those verses which imply that Hell is "hot" (such as the Rich Man in the Old Testament who cries out for water from Hell) don't answer the question about how Hell can be hot yet not consume the body. I mean, this rich man wasn't screaming in agony as you would expect if you were treading lava. Anyhow, just to say that theer is no clear answer on this, either.

c) Hell is eternal.

- More controversy. Many writers (like CS Lewis and Ferrar Capon, just to name a couple) suggest that the Parables of Judgement in the New Testament indicate that hell lasts only as long as those inside it wish to remain (the Parable of the Prodigal being one...at the end the Father stands out in the courtyard pleading with the brother to enter into the party, which the brother refuses to do because he judges his younger brother to be unworthy of a celebration).

If you can accept that there is a lot of uncertainty within Christiandom regarding these issues then to finally answer your question a POSSIBLE explanation might be this:

God created human being with the free will to accept or reject His plan for salvation, which is faith in the work of Christ on their behalf. If we reject this "deal" then we stand on the outside of Heaven, called Hell. Hell isn't pleasant and we can only speculate about why that is so. But there is reason to believe that God continually invites us into Heaven, yes even after death. Some may choose to enter some may never, I don't know. But I think that those in Hell aren't angry at God for being in Hell, I don't think they would consider Him evil for their reality. Yes, I believe God knows everyone's destiny. I think it would be great if everyone eventually placed their faith in Christ and maybe they will, I simply don't know. So, unless I KNOW these things I can't make the assumption that God is evil, especially when the overwhelming evidence is to the contrary.

We should ask ourselves why we NEED non-Believers to suffer eternally with the WORST kind of pain FOREVER? Could it have more to do about us than God, our desire for retribution, revenge, justice? How does serving a God who is forever patient and loving a bad thing?

[AgnosticFront84]

You see man, the moment that the Bible declares at least once that GOD IS GOOD and HIS GOODNESS ENDURES FOR EVER....means EXACTLY THAT!

The Scripture CANNOT BE BROKEN...neither changed or altered...

The Scriptures are GOD's OWN DECLARATION OF THE TRUTH...and JESUS HIMSELF Whon is THE WORD of GOD INCARNATE ,HE IS THE TRUTH...so your question about God being EVIL falls ...THE QUESTION CANNOT STAND on ITS OWN LEGS! because from GENESIS to REVELATION you can read THAT GOD IS GOOD and HIS GOODNESS ENDURES FOR EVER....

I tell you who IS EVIL....."Apollion,Abbadon,Satan,The Old Serpent,THE FATHER of LIES,THE DEVIL,THE DRAGON....THE FALLEN ONE!!!!"

Be careful friend...DON'T PLAY with FIRE....stop FOOLING YOURSELF and playing "PHILOSPHER and BIG THINKER"...I say to you in TRUE christian LOVE...STOP FOOLING AROUND and REPENT ...GO TO GOD and REPENT of all this junk and you'll find that GOD IS GOOD and LOVES YOU and REALLY doesn't want at all that you END UP in THE LAKE OF FIRE FOR ETERNITY! I REPEAT: E T E R N I T Y.......IN JESUS NAME I IMPLORE YOU: REPENT and SAVE YOUR SOUL BY TRUSTING IN JESUS as YOUR LORD and SAVIOUR otherwise YOU WILL GO TO HELL,notwhitstanding that THE FATHER GAVE JESUS FOR YOU...DO YOU READ ME? FOR YOU...DO YOU READ ME? FOR YOU........but EVEN GOD with ALL HIS MIGHT will not go against YOUR WILL...I exhort you: REPENT before is too late!

ARE YOU SO SURE THAT YOU WILL SEE THE LIGHT OF THE DAY TOMORROW?WHAT ABOUT IF YOUR LIFE WILL BE REQUIRED TONIGHT? WHY END UP IN THE EVERLASTING DAMNATION of HELL with satan and his followers? WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU? ARE YOU CRAZY?

R E P E N T...seriously,I mean it,in JESUS NAME.

AMEN

Your friend in Jesus ROBERTO( a dirty sinner saved BY GRACE and FAITH in JESUS CHRIST WHO IS GOOD and LOVES YOU TOO!)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you for reinforcing the reason why I would never again want to be a finger-pointing, aggressive, intolerable, red-eyed christian. I almost forgot why I de-converted. Although, it is tempting to spend eternity with people like you.

[AgnosticFront84]

Hi Agnostic!

Man, we sound like the same person except I have found a way to answer these questions with the Bible that still allow me to sleep at night

First of all, I know where you are coming from.  In my "fundamentalist" days I had to answer your questions with things like "Well, God can do what He wants" or "Some vessels are fitted for wrath" or "Does the hammer tell the one wielding it how to be used?"..things like that.

I think one of the assumptions you are holding is that:

a) people who don't believe in Jesus go to Hell

- there is debate within the church over this, it is by no means a doctrine on  which all Christian churches hold the same opinion.  Some would argue (from scripture) that Hell is a place designed for Satan and his angels and not Humankind.  You can believe that non-Believers do not go to Hell and still be a "Christian" because, quite frankly, the Bible is quite ambiguous and unclear on a LOT of issues like this.

b) Hell is a literal "lake of fire".

- again, some people believe that this was a metaphorical description of how unpleasant Hell is for us because it represents the pain of dissociation from the Creator.  Even those verses which imply that Hell is "hot" (such as the Rich Man in the Old Testament who cries out for water from Hell) don't answer the question about how Hell can be hot yet not consume the body.  I mean, this rich man wasn't screaming in agony as you would expect if you were treading lava.  Anyhow, just to say that theer is no clear answer on this, either.

c) Hell is eternal.

- More controversy.  Many writers (like CS Lewis and Ferrar Capon, just to name a couple) suggest that the Parables of Judgement in the New Testament indicate that hell lasts only as long as those inside it wish to remain (the Parable of the Prodigal being one...at the end the Father stands out in the courtyard pleading with the brother to enter into the party, which the brother refuses to do because he judges his younger brother to be unworthy of a celebration).

If you can accept that there is a lot of uncertainty within Christiandom regarding these issues then to finally answer your question a POSSIBLE explanation might be this:

God created human being with the free will to accept or reject His plan for salvation, which is faith in the work of Christ on their behalf.  If we reject this "deal" then we stand on the outside of Heaven, called Hell.  Hell isn't pleasant and we can only speculate about why that is so.  But there is reason to believe that God continually invites us into Heaven, yes even after death.  Some may choose to enter some may never, I don't know.  But I think that those in Hell aren't angry at God for being in Hell, I don't think they would consider Him evil for their reality.  Yes, I believe God knows everyone's destiny.  I think it would be great if everyone eventually placed their faith in Christ and maybe they will, I simply don't know.  So, unless I KNOW these things I can't make the assumption that God is evil, especially when the overwhelming evidence is to the contrary.

We should ask ourselves why we NEED non-Believers to suffer eternally with the WORST kind of pain FOREVER?  Could it have more to do about us than God, our  desire for retribution, revenge, justice?  How does serving a God who is forever patient and loving a bad thing?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you for taking the time to help answer my question

One thing, even you aren't a christian, but are a "good" person, you are still serving God. A good person meaning someone who doesn't lie, cheat, steal, hurt others, unselfish, and treating others as they would want to be treated. I'm sure you will agree that there are many non-believers who are more loving and caring than a lot of christians who you meet at church. (if you go to church, you definately know what I mean.)

The bible is a book of mystery considering the fact that people are always debating on what should be taken symbolically and what indeed must be taken literally. For instance, did you every wonder about how the bible says in hell there will be "wailing" and "gnashing of teeth" to describe the excruciating pain? SOULS have LUNGS to wail and TEETH to gnash?? I always thought a soul was a matterless object, not a fleshlike body. If the pain described is as what some believe to be the emotional pain from being so far from God, then I think I can deal with that a lot easier than spending eternity with the christians I've been trying to avoid the last 8 years of my life.

[Ovedya]

One thing, even you aren't a christian, but are a "good" person, you are still serving God. A good person meaning someone who doesn't lie, cheat, steal, hurt others, unselfish, and treating others as they would want to be treated.

Unfortunately, however, even the "goodness" of man is not sufficient to attain salvation. I agree that there are sometimes kinder, sometimes more tolerant unbelievers than believers. But the same holds true for pretty much anything. here are just some people that are kinder and more tolerant in general.

[Gerioke]

One thing, even you aren't a christian, but are a "good" person, you are still serving God. A good person meaning someone who doesn't lie, cheat, steal, hurt others, unselfish, and treating others as they would want to be treated.

You're not serving God unless you are giving glory to God

[AgnosticFront84]

One thing, even you aren't a christian, but are a "good" person, you are still serving God. A good person meaning someone who doesn't lie, cheat, steal, hurt others, unselfish, and treating others as they would want to be treated.

Unfortunately, however, even the "goodness" of man is not sufficient to attain salvation. I agree that there are sometimes kinder, sometimes more tolerant unbelievers than believers. But the same holds true for pretty much anything. here are just some people that are kinder and more tolerant in general.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I knew someone would respond with this sooner or later Oh, I'll just say it and get it over with: "Good people don't go to heaven, saved people do!!"

[Ovedya]

One thing, even you aren't a christian, but are a "good" person, you are still serving God. A good person meaning someone who doesn't lie, cheat, steal, hurt others, unselfish, and treating others as they would want to be treated.

Unfortunately, however, even the "goodness" of man is not sufficient to attain salvation. I agree that there are sometimes kinder, sometimes more tolerant unbelievers than believers. But the same holds true for pretty much anything. here are just some people that are kinder and more tolerant in general.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I knew someone would respond with this sooner or later Oh, I'll just say it and get it over with: "Good people don't go to heaven, saved people do!!"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

See? You shoulda' known better.

[Gerioke]

One thing, even you aren't a christian, but are a "good" person, you are still serving God. A good person meaning someone who doesn't lie, cheat, steal, hurt others, unselfish, and treating others as they would want to be treated.

Unfortunately, however, even the "goodness" of man is not sufficient to attain salvation. I agree that there are sometimes kinder, sometimes more tolerant unbelievers than believers. But the same holds true for pretty much anything. here are just some people that are kinder and more tolerant in general.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I knew someone would respond with this sooner or later Oh, I'll just say it and get it over with: "Good people don't go to heaven, saved people do!!"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Matthew 19: 16 And, behold, one came and said to him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if you will enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He said to him, Which? Jesus said, You shall do no murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,

19 Honor your father and your mother: and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

20 The young man said to him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21 Jesus said to him, If you will be perfect, go and sell that you have, and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

[AFaceInTheCrowd]

Repent of your sins.When you called GOD evil you blasphemed our LORD.I wouldnt have let you spoke past that before I would have banned you