Guest charlie Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 This country was founded on Jesus Christ, church and state has always been side by side. The liberals in this country decided to kick Jesus out. People Like Dobson, Falwell, and the men that stand up for truth and right ought to be commended. I am really surprised to hear what you are saying Rev. Turmoil. You sound true to your name, in a turmoil. I will pray for you. YSIC Littlelite noidea.gif When in any of the "founding documents"; the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution can you find the name Jesus Christ? Several of the Founding Fathers were Christian but many were Dietiests; they intended for there to be a separation of church and state for the reason I gave earlier; to avoid religious persecution. Separation of church and state is a good thing for Christians and "liberal" is not a dirty word. If the founding fathers had been conservative we'd still be British citizens. It amazes me how some people always go for some sort of personal attack when someone disagrees with them; perhaps you should pray for yourself in that area Littlelite. You know what though, these personal attacks are a good early warning of how our country could become if far-right fundamentalist extremists were to take control of the government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest charlie Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 James Dobson is one of the most politically active tele-preachers. He has managed to offend me several times. Don Wielman, who I USED to also listen too on radio, has also offended me. He said that liberals were communist! Robertson, Dobson, Falwell, Wielman, and anybody who promotes the religious right by demonizing the liberals should keep their divisive political views to themselves. Religion divides people anyway. Mixing the two makes for bad medicine. And believe it or not, I've stopped going to some churches because there are too many republicans there. I got sick of the one sidedness. Reverend Turmoil. I used to listen to all of those guys myself and I totally agree with you. They go on and on about government interferring in people's lives when that's what they want to do themselves. I also noticed the demonizing language they use against anyone or any organization that they didn't like. I lost track of how many times I'd go to verify something one of them said only to find out that they were either lying outright; lying by omission, or just embellishing the truth. If they're so right in what they're doing they wouldn't have to lie. I've also somehow been blocked from taking part or viewing the polls at James Dobson's site. I used to be able to participate but after not giving the answer Dobson was looking for on a couple of the poll questions I could no longer access that portion of the site. Evidently they only conduct polls in order to get a specific answer not what people really think; the questions were often skewed anyway.....something they accuse others of doing. I am so glad the Lord delivered me from the influence of these people. I know what you mean about churches too. Sometimes you can't tell if you're in church or at a republican political rally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlelite Posted July 11, 2005 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 63 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/06/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/21/1948 Share Posted July 11, 2005 This country was founded on Jesus Christ, church and state has always been side by side. The liberals in this country decided to kick Jesus out. People Like Dobson, Falwell, and the men that stand up for truth and right ought to be commended. I am really surprised to hear what you are saying Rev. Turmoil. You sound true to your name, in a turmoil. I will pray for you. YSIC Littlelite noidea.gif When in any of the "founding documents"; the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution can you find the name Jesus Christ? Several of the Founding Fathers were Christian but many were Dietiests; they intended for there to be a separation of church and state for the reason I gave earlier; to avoid religious persecution. Separation of church and state is a good thing for Christians and "liberal" is not a dirty word. If the founding fathers had been conservative we'd still be British citizens. It amazes me how some people always go for some sort of personal attack when someone disagrees with them; perhaps you should pray for yourself in that area Littlelite. You know what though, these personal attacks are a good early warning of how our country could become if far-right fundamentalist extremists were to take control of the government. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> [/quote It amazes me how people profess to be a christian, and come up with the statements that they do, Here is a website that I hope you will look up and see where this country (Nation) was founded on In God we trust, "www.ingodwetrustassociation.com"- Liberal used to be a good word, but now they want to use it to cover their sins. I would rather be a conservatist today than a liberal. The liberals have gave the Democratic party a bad name. I donot want to continue to debate with you to cause hard feelings, I just want to point out, that the Christians today need to stand up for truth and right, instead of being politically correct. Plus we allow freedom of religion for all other religions, but when it comes to christianity and sharing the Gospel of Jesus, it is not allowed. What is wrong with America??? So Charlie, I will apologize to you if you take it as an attack towards you. I did not mean to attack you personally, but I do know that America was founded on Christian Values. so please go to the website I offered and let me know what you think. YSIC Littlelite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karen C. Posted July 12, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 662 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/15/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/01/1960 Author Share Posted July 12, 2005 To just add a book reference for Rev Turmoil that may lend good Christian guidance on what the Lord requires of us (His children) reguarding those in authority. The aurthor is John Bevere and the name of the book is "Under Cover". It is a really excellent book about how we are to understand the authorities given over us by God. Our negative and slanderous judgements and opinions only bring the words to rest back upon us.. Prov 26:2 like a fluttering sparrow or a darting swallow, an undeserved curse does not come to rest. Many blessings, Karen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karen C. Posted July 12, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 662 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/15/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/01/1960 Author Share Posted July 12, 2005 The original intent of the topic was not to start a controversy over separation of church and state. Rep vs dem. But who would have thought 50 years ago that there would have been oil under them sand dunes in the middle east??? Just a reflection to lighten the topic.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest charlie Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 You said God knew what an evil and corrupt man Bush is. That is interesting. When did God have a conversation with you and give you that information? Are you now his personal advisor? My knowledge of how God feels about things is limited to the Bible, and I have never seen George Bush's name mentioned there. I thought you said God told you to be a preacher? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlelite Posted July 13, 2005 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 63 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/06/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/21/1948 Share Posted July 13, 2005 If you believe politics should be kept out of religion, then why are you and for that matter Charlie, making political statements of any kind? I'm not the preacher here you are; I'm not telling people to vote my way or believe what I believe because I'm a church leader implying that I'm speaking for God. I'm not getting on Christian radio stations and telling people how to vote or when to call their representatives. Christian radio should be used for spreading the gospel just like preachers should concentrate on spreading the gospel. I don't try to insert my interpretation of Bible prophecy into foreign policy either. Our country's founders for the most part believed in God even though they weren't all Christian but the reason for separation of church and state is so that we won't get a repeat of witch burnings and a new version of the medieval roman catholic inquisitions. That was Christian on Christian persecution not Christian on non-believer persecution. Give to God what is God's and give to Ceasar what is Ceasar's. More and more it seems to me that the evangelical/fundamentalist church gives to Ceasar that which belongs to God and takes the portion that should go to Ceasar for themselves. Instead of worrying about the ACLU or any other group the church should be preparing people to meet their maker. The end of the age will come someday no matter what; the church should not be caught up in politics but in changing hearts and minds with the gospel of Jesus Christ; preparing people. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> James Dobson is one of the most politically active tele-preachers. He has managed to offend me several times. Don Wielman, who I USED to also listen too on radio, has also offended me. He said that liberals were communist! Robertson, Dobson, Falwell, Wielman, and anybody who promotes the religious right by demonizing the liberals should keep their divisive political views to themselves. Religion divides people anyway. Mixing the two makes for bad medicine. And believe it or not, I've stopped going to some churches because there are too many republicans there. I got sick of the one sidedness. Reverend Turmoil. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The idea that people on the religious right should not "demonize", (I prefer expose their evil agenda) liberals, should keep their divisive political view to themselves is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but I disagree. As far as your decision to stop going to certain churches because there were too many Republicans there, that is the beauty of this country. There are left-wing churches available with itching ear teachers as well as Bible believing churches you can attend. Personally, any church with a bunch of Democrats attending would cause me to leave, because any church with a lot of members that would join themselves to a party that supports abortion on demand and the homosexual agenda is not in line with the Bible. Yes, I have read Charlie's arguments that the Republican Party really doesn't care about these issues, but at least they do not openly support them in their platform. The Democratic Party actively promotes evil. Even when it comes to judicial nominees, if Kerry were making them, there would be no doubt the judge would support abortion, but at least with Bush, there is a chance the judge will not. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The problem with you is that even if Bullwinkle was republican running for president, you would vote for him because "he's a republican". Abortion, gay rights, are not the important issues to me as they are to you. These things can find a balance in congress. The most foolish and deadly war this country will ever get into is the one we are in right now. We will lose more Americans in one day than in any time in our nations past because of this arrogant, self centered, reckless, lying president. God will bring low the arrogance of the American people because of the actions and outrite corruption of this president. Most of you have no clue "why" we don't have bin Laden and you wouldn't believe it if you knew the truth. I have never heard a republican say anything good about a democrat. So I have nothing good to say about lying deceitful republicans. His fiscal policies are a mess. His foreign policy will bring the world to war. You can't see it now but you will believe it some day. God knew what kind of man He has in George Bush...the most corrupt family in politics today. He also knows his propensity for evil. By the way, I live in a house with an atheist and a gay man. They often make more sense than most christian republicans who constantly point the finger at democrats. I don't hardly go to church other than Catholic church because of you right wing republicans that constantly try to take the speck out of peoples eye. You never have anything good to say about democrats. So I follow suit and do the same for the other evil political party. I'm tired of the lies, hypocrisy, uneccessary war, fiscal mismanagement, and poor policies all around. We will pay dearly for the arrogant actions of this man. The scripture say's... God will bring low the arrogance of man. Beware of the people you vote for. You think you vote for christian morals when you vote republican...you are so deceived. Have at it!!! Rev. I'm not a spineless democrat or corrupt republican. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> In regards to your first statement, that would depend on Bullwinkle's view on abortion. If he were pro-life I would certainly vote for him over Kerry or Gore. I do not believe even a cartoon character would do a worse job than they would as President. Also, to me it is not about the political party the candidate belongs to, but their view on what I consider moral issues. To me the number one issue I vote on is abortion, since unborn children are not able to defend themselves. It is therefore up to the church to act as their spokesman. Contrary to what you said, Congress can not find a balance over this issue thanks to the dictators in black robes that have decreed abortion is a woman's constitutional right, even though no such right ever existed. You said that we will lose more Americans in one day in this war than in any other time in our nation's past. What are you, some kind of a psychic? How can you make a statement such as that and expect anyone to take you seriously. I do not even claim to know the outcome of this clash with terrorists. My knowledge of future events is limited to Bible prophecy, which never mentions the specifics of this war. By the way, regarding the issue of abortion which doesn't mean that much to you, this nation has murdered 1.5 to 2 million innocent unborn babies every year since 1973. No matter how many die in this campaign against terrorist, it is unlikely to come close to equalling that number. If God's judgement comes against America, it will be far more deserved because of this than the war in Iraq. You are calling the President arrogant, self-centered, reckless and a liar. While I disagree with you on all points, in the case of reckless, from your standpoint I can at least see how you could make that judgement, but in the other accusations, who made you his judge? To say he is self-centered, arrogant and a liar are all sladerous accusations you can not prove. Even in the case of weapons of mass destruction, you have no proof he did not believe the intelligence reports. By the way, you say you have never heard a Republican say anything good about a Democrat. Now you will. I believe Zell Miller, former Democratic Senator from Georgia is a very principled man, that puts the nation's security over personal politics. Here is another one. I believe Jesse Jackson did a very courageous thing in trying to help save the life of Terri Schiavo. While I usually don't agree with his politics, he showed great character in doing the right thing in this matter. While I disagree with his politics, I have also stated that I believe Tony Blair to be an honest politician and principled in his beliefs. Though he is not a Democrat, he is certainly a liberal. You said God knew what an evil and corrupt man Bush is. That is interesting. When did God have a conversation with you and give you that information? Are you now his personal advisor? My knowledge of how God feels about things is limited to the Bible, and I have never seen George Bush's name mentioned there. You say you live in a house with an atheist and a homosexual and they make more sense than many Christians? So in other words you are forming your opinions from a man the Bible calls a fool, (Psalm 53:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.") and a man the Bible calls a reprobate (Romans 1:28 "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient.). No wonder you are in turmoil! You described the Christian conservatives as trying to pull the speck out of other's eyes. The actual scripture you are misquoting is found in Matthew 7:5 which says, "Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye: and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of they brothers eye." In other words, we are to not simply look to find fault in others and ignore our own sins. We are to live right ourselves so we can see clearly to help our sinful brother. You believe that I am deceived. I believe it is you Sir, that has been deceived. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlelite Posted July 13, 2005 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 63 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/06/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/21/1948 Share Posted July 13, 2005 You said God knew what an evil and corrupt man Bush is. That is interesting. When did God have a conversation with you and give you that information? Are you now his personal advisor? My knowledge of how God feels about things is limited to the Bible, and I have never seen George Bush's name mentioned there. I've known that the Bush family is the most corrupt in politics since before the elections. They, as most republicans do, have serious ethical issues. Lets see, Nixon...Watergate. Reagan...Iran contra. Daddy Bush...Iran contra, Panama deception. Little George...Deceitful lies by the dozens and takes the country to war with a country that didn't provoke us. One issue voters who vote on the basis of moral issues just don't have a clue. You will not stop homosexuality. They tried doing away with abortion and it was a disaster. Even if you ban abortion, people will still have them. They will either go to Canada or elsewhere like the neighbors basement or bathtub for a coat hanger induced abortion. What many one issue voters do is ignore important political issues and let moral issues override their common sensibility. Moral issues are personal things that government will change very little. Ethical issues in politics can destroy the economy and the country... and we're headed in that direction. How do I know God knows Bush is corrupt and evil? I know his deceitful lies so I'm sure God does. And...This is just the kind of arrogant man God wanted and will use to bring the Mid East to a regional war, and bring prophecy to pass, and the world to Armageddon. When did God have a conversation with you and give you that information? I converse with God often and you would be surprised! Take a look at the Ships of the West who now subdue "Ashur and Eber". They will meet their destruction. Thanks to arrogant and reckless George. Politics should stay out of religion and religion should stay out of politics. To promote politics in church would horribly divide America and the church. We have become divided enough because of the republicans and this president, and republican televangelist If what I said about losing more Americans in one day than any day in our nations history comes to pass, and I'm still alive, I'll tell you the rest of the story! In the end, when Americans who voted for Bush see what this presidents actions have done for us, they will say to themselves, "what have we done"! Reverend Turmoil <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thanks for clarifying your position on Bush. Am I to assume from your reply that you are some kind of prophet? If so, why wait to reveal what is going to take place in more detail? Then we will be able to know for sure if you are of God or not? As for the one issue voter statement, I am very much aware of other issues that effect America and have opinions on them as well. It is just my opinion that moral issues will decide how God judges a nation. I am more concerned with having God on our side than I am the other issues of our day, so moral issues will take precidence to me over economic. If we have the moral issues right, God will bless us economically. You said "they" tried to take away abortion and it ended in disaster? Who is they? Abortion was never legal till 1971, and that was only in New York State. It was only legalized nationwide by a decree from the Supreme Court in 1973. It has been legal in America ever since. If abortion is illegal, some will go to Canada or elsewhere, but where availability goes down, so will the number of abortions. There will be many women that will have abortions if it is legal, but who would not break the law. There will also be those that will try a coat hanger as a solution, but the numbers will still be few in comparison to the 1.5 to 2 million babies killed today. You said that moral issues are things the government can change very little. I would contend that every law on the books are based on someone's morals, many on God's laws. Laws against murder, stealing, slander, etc. are all based on the government legislating morality. The world would be in a sorry state if the government ever did stop legislating morality. Since you listed what you consider highlights of former Republican administrations, let me remind you of some of the Democratic accomplishments. Johnson- Got us into the Vietnam War. Carter- Talk about economic turmoil! Remember the gas lines, the high inflation rates, ridiculous tax rates, and sky high unemployment. Clinton- Accused by Juanita Broderick of rape, known adulterer, lied under oath, impeached, disbarred by a liberal judge, gave the Chinese the technology enabling them to hit the U.S. mainland with nuclear weapons for the first time. The track record of Democrats haven't exactly given me any reason that a Gore or Kerry would have done any better than Bush. You have predicted that when Americans that voted for Bush see what the President's actions have done, they will say, "What have we done?" Regardless of what his actions do, I will not say that because I have no way of knowing what an Al Gore or John Kerry's actions would have led to. There were only 2 candidates with a chance of winning, and I went with the one I considered to be the best choice. I still do consider Bush better than Gore or Kerry. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Dear Butero, All I can say is Thank you for saying things I would have liked to have said AMEN!!!!AMENLittlelite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted July 14, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 733 Topics Per Day: 0.10 Content Count: 3,017 Content Per Day: 0.43 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/01/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/09/1966 Share Posted July 14, 2005 Here's another article on the subject... http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45249 IN SEARCH OF A LEGACY Bill Clinton, World savior? Posted: July 12, 2005 9:45 p.m. Eastern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karen C. Posted July 14, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 662 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/15/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/01/1960 Author Share Posted July 14, 2005 Personaly I have always felt Clinton and Hilary are somehow involved in the end time scenario.. But, hey, who am I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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