The Behaviour That Brings Down Babylon

[Michael37]

3 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

You know, I wonder if the two witnesses didn't kill and torment those nations, would those nations still attack Jerusalem and kill its citizens? 

It's possible they may not if those two witnesses didn't torment them. The nations will do unto Jerusalem as Jerusalem has done. 

Hi @Shilohsfoal

Where in the text does it say the nations attack Jerusalem and kill its citizens?

Only the two witnesses are killed by the beast.

As you may be aware there is much symbolism involved. Many of the commentators I regularly read incline towards a spiritual rather than literal interpretation of Revelation 11, with the temple symbolising the genuine ekklesia of God, the outer court being pretenders, and the two witnesses being OT Law & NT Grace, but opinions vary. 

Some claim the duration of 1260 days to be 1260 years of the Gospel being preached, which leads to an intriguing symbolism with regard to the three and a half days again being years in which the peoples, tribes, tongues & nations celebrate the death of the two witnesses, possibly God's Law & Grace, the imagery of them not being allowed a burial speaking to the gross insult and humiliation directed against them.  

 All this comes to pass when the sixth trumpet sounds.

Rev 11:7-11  When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.  (8)  And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.  (9)  Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves.  (10)  And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.  (11)  Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.
 

[Shilohsfoal]

7 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Hi @Shilohsfoal

Where in the text does it say the nations attack Jerusalem and kill its citizens?

Only the two witnesses are killed by the beast.

As you may be aware there is much symbolism involved. Many of the commentators I regularly read incline towards a spiritual rather than literal interpretation of Revelation 11, with the temple symbolising the genuine ekklesia of God, the outer court being pretenders, and the two witnesses being OT Law & NT Grace, but opinions vary. 

Some claim the duration of 1260 days to be 1260 years of the Gospel being preached, which leads to an intriguing symbolism with regard to the three and a half days again being years in which the peoples, tribes, tongues & nations celebrate the death of the two witnesses, possibly God's Law & Grace, the imagery of them not being allowed a burial speaking to the gross insult and humiliation directed against them.  

 All this comes to pass when the sixth trumpet sounds.

Rev 11:7-11  When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.  (8)  And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.  (9)  Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves.  (10)  And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.  (11)  Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.
 

The text that those nations that attack Jerusalem are found in several books. In Revelation for instance, it states the ten horns of the beast hate the prostitute and will make her desolate and naked and will burn her flesh. The prostitute is the city. In zech it states those nations rape the women of Jerusalem and take many captive. 

Zech 14:2

I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.
 

Those Muslim nations that hate Israel are going to have to kill the fathers and husbands before they will rape the women and take them as slaves. That's common sense. Also all of Israel's defenders will have to be killed as well before this happens. Unless you believe the Israeli goverment will auction off its women to those advancing nations that take Jerusalem, then the armies protecting Israel are dead. 

The Gentiles that occupied Jerusalem the previous 42 months with the two witnesses will also be dead. 

Rev 11:2

But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.

 

All this enrages the king of the north and understandably so because those gentiles are his armed forces. 

When the king of the south (beast from the Pitt) attacks Jerusalem, it will be the time of the end. 

Daniel 11:40

And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

Daniel 11:44

But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.

I suspect on the day of the Lord, the son of perdition(destruction) will kill at least  a couple hundred million people. There won't be a Muslim left in the promised land. 

[Shilohsfoal]

7 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Hi @Shilohsfoal

Where in the text does it say the nations attack Jerusalem and kill its citizens?

Only the two witnesses are killed by the beast.

As you may be aware there is much symbolism involved. Many of the commentators I regularly read incline towards a spiritual rather than literal interpretation of Revelation 11, with the temple symbolising the genuine ekklesia of God, the outer court being pretenders, and the two witnesses being OT Law & NT Grace, but opinions vary. 

Some claim the duration of 1260 days to be 1260 years of the Gospel being preached, which leads to an intriguing symbolism with regard to the three and a half days again being years in which the peoples, tribes, tongues & nations celebrate the death of the two witnesses, possibly God's Law & Grace, the imagery of them not being allowed a burial speaking to the gross insult and humiliation directed against them.  

 All this comes to pass when the sixth trumpet sounds.

Rev 11:7-11  When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.  (8)  And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.  (9)  Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves.  (10)  And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.  (11)  Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.
 

PS

Here is the text of what the beast from the Pitt and those ten nations do to Jerusalem when they kill those two witnesses. 

Rev 17:16-18

The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled.

The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”
 

Like I said though. If those two witnesses hadn't been tormenting those nations, they may not have even leave Jerusalem in ruin. But they are doing to Jerusalem as Jerusalem has done. They are returning the favor. 

[Michael37]

11 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

PS

Here is the text of what the beast from the Pitt and those ten nations do to Jerusalem when they kill those two witnesses. 

Rev 17:16-18

The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled.

The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”
 

Like I said though. If those two witnesses hadn't been tormenting those nations, they may not have even leave Jerusalem in ruin. But they are doing to Jerusalem as Jerusalem has done. They are returning the favor. 

I avoid sandwiching other references into the Seven Seals, Seven Trumpets, and Seven Bowls cadence.

In that respect from my perspective your speculation doesn't align with anything that happens during the interval following the sounding of the sixth trumpet.

It doesn't bother me what other people believe about the Seven Seals and what happens when each is opened. I am greatly rewarded by what the Holy Spirit allows me to know.

There is an interesting internal comparison in Revelation of the Scriptural disclosures that detail the consequences of the sixth seal being opened with the consequences of the sixth trumpet sounding.  

My Notes Regarding God's Grace Upon His Elect And His Wrath Upon The Others As Disclosed When the Seven Seals Are Opened: (If useful, good, if not, no problem)  

(A) John Given Two Disclosures of The Elect After The Sixth Seal Is Opened: 

(1) 144,000 of the Twelve Tribes Sealed - The Chosen Israelites Preserved On Earth. Rev 7:1-8

(2) A Great Multitude Serving God in the Heavenly Temple - The Redeemed Saints Raptured to Heaven to Enjoy God's Care & the Lamb's Shepherding. Rev 7: 9-17

(B) John Given Three Disclosures of Final Events After The Sixth Trumpet Sounds:

(1) Things About To Be Finished. Rev 10:1-7

(2) Things John Must Do. Rev 10:8-11, Rev 11:1-2

       (a) Take and eat little scroll.

       (b) Prophesy again over many peoples and nations and tongues and kings.

        (c) Measure Temple of God, Altar, and Worshippers with Rod. 

        (d) Discard Outer Court and Do Not Measure it. 

(3) Things Typical Of Spiritual Contest Which Will Be Occurring. Rev 11:3-12

- (a) The making of God's Will known through His Testaments of Law and Grace, personified in the Two Witnesses. 

- (b) The wearing of Sackcloth to signify the grievous state of spiritual affairs.

- (c) The two Olive Trees, one for the Creator and one for the Creation, representing the spiritual supply of oil.

- (d) The two Lampstands, one for the Creator and one for the Creation, representing the spiritual supply of light.

- (e) The Fire from the mouths of the Two Witnesses to signify God's Wrath against His enemies.

- (f) The Withholding of Rain to remind of Elijah's authority in a similar spiritual contest.

- (g) The Turning of Waters to Blood and Smiting of the Earth with Plagues to remind of Moses's authority in a similar spiritual contest.     

- (h) The Spiritual War Of Wicked Humanity Against The Two Witnesses of God's Law and Grace seems to be over when these two are overcome and killed by the Beast from the Abyss, with all that Jerusalem has played host to seeming to reach a conclusion in the triumph of Irreverence and Immorality (Sodom), and Idolatry and Tyranny (Egypt).

- (i) The Earth Dwellers Celebration of the end of their torment is attended by insult and humiliation of the two corpses being left unburied.

-(j) The Two Witnesses are Resurrected and Ascend to Heaven.

-(k) The Great Earthquake shakes up the place where the prophets were persecuted by the population, and some are killed while others give glory to God.

Blessing from Michael 37. 

 

  

[Shilohsfoal]

14 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

I avoid sandwiching other references into the Seven Seals, Seven Trumpets, and Seven Bowls cadence.

In that respect from my perspective your speculation doesn't align with anything that happens during the interval following the sounding of the sixth trumpet.

It doesn't bother me what other people believe about the Seven Seals and what happens when each is opened. I am greatly rewarded by what the Holy Spirit allows me to know.

There is an interesting internal comparison in Revelation of the Scriptural disclosures that detail the consequences of the sixth seal being opened with the consequences of the sixth trumpet sounding.  

My Notes Regarding God's Grace Upon His Elect And His Wrath Upon The Others As Disclosed When the Seven Seals Are Opened: (If useful, good, if not, no problem)  

(A) John Given Two Disclosures of The Elect After The Sixth Seal Is Opened: 

(1) 144,000 of the Twelve Tribes Sealed - The Chosen Israelites Preserved On Earth. Rev 7:1-8

(2) A Great Multitude Serving God in the Heavenly Temple - The Redeemed Saints Raptured to Heaven to Enjoy God's Care & the Lamb's Shepherding. Rev 7: 9-17

(B) John Given Three Disclosures of Final Events After The Sixth Trumpet Sounds:

(1) Things About To Be Finished. Rev 10:1-7

(2) Things John Must Do. Rev 10:8-11, Rev 11:1-2

       (a) Take and eat little scroll.

       (b) Prophesy again over many peoples and nations and tongues and kings.

        (c) Measure Temple of God, Altar, and Worshippers with Rod. 

        (d) Discard Outer Court and Do Not Measure it. 

(3) Things Typical Of Spiritual Contest Which Will Be Occurring. Rev 11:3-12

- (a) The making of God's Will known through His Testaments of Law and Grace, personified in the Two Witnesses. 

- (b) The wearing of Sackcloth to signify the grievous state of spiritual affairs.

- (c) The two Olive Trees, one for the Creator and one for the Creation, representing the spiritual supply of oil.

- (d) The two Lampstands, one for the Creator and one for the Creation, representing the spiritual supply of light.

- (e) The Fire from the mouths of the Two Witnesses to signify God's Wrath against His enemies.

- (f) The Withholding of Rain to remind of Elijah's authority in a similar spiritual contest.

- (g) The Turning of Waters to Blood and Smiting of the Earth with Plagues to remind of Moses's authority in a similar spiritual contest.     

- (h) The Spiritual War Of Wicked Humanity Against The Two Witnesses of God's Law and Grace seems to be over when these two are overcome and killed by the Beast from the Abyss, with all that Jerusalem has played host to seeming to reach a conclusion in the triumph of Irreverence and Immorality (Sodom), and Idolatry and Tyranny (Egypt).

- (i) The Earth Dwellers Celebration of the end of their torment is attended by insult and humiliation of the two corpses being left unburied.

-(j) The Two Witnesses are Resurrected and Ascend to Heaven.

-(k) The Great Earthquake shakes up the place where the prophets were persecuted by the population, and some are killed while others give glory to God.

Blessing from Michael 37. 

 

  

Well, if you don't understand, it's OK. You might at a latter date. 

Anyways, just want to let you know. The armed forces stationed in Jerusalem during those 42 months can do everything those two witnesses can do. 

Revelation 11:2

But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.

 

I may not know the names of those two witnesses yet. But I know who these Gentiles are and where they come from. 

[Michael37]

4 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.

Two points of interest:

(1) The Integration of John into the Scenes he is Shown: 

Throughout the Book of Revelation John is given various visions and tasks that involve him in the delivery of the disclosure, the tasks sometimes being to refrain from things, such as writing about the seven thunders and measuring the outer court.

(2) The Numerical Correspondence of the Trampling of the Holy City with the Prophesying of the Two Witnesses:

- Trampling = 42 months x 30 days each = 1260 days (3.5 years)

- Prophesying = 1260 days (3.5 years)

The trampling and prophesying can be seen as simultaneous, the one pitted against the other, hence the sense of the tramplers being "tormented" in a way that affects all earth dwellers.

Rev 11:10  And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Blessings from Michael37 

[Shilohsfoal]

6 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Two points of interest:

(1) The Integration of John into the Scenes he is Shown: 

Throughout the Book of Revelation John is given various visions and tasks that involve him in the delivery of the disclosure, the tasks sometimes being to refrain from things, such as writing about the seven thunders and measuring the outer court.

(2) The Numerical Correspondence of the Trampling of the Holy City with the Prophesying of the Two Witnesses:

- Trampling = 42 months x 30 days each = 1260 days (3.5 years)

- Prophesying = 1260 days (3.5 years)

The trampling and prophesying can be seen as simultaneous, the one pitted against the other, hence the sense of the tramplers being "tormented" in a way that affects all earth dwellers.

Rev 11:10  And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Blessings from Michael37 

Oh no, they are not pitted against each other in Jerusalem. The Gentiles and the two witnesses arrive  the same time and they occupy Jerusalem the same time together. 

And while the two witnesses torment the nations, those gentiles do the same. I've read about what those gentiles do during those 42 months in another book. I also know they are capable of doing everything scripture says the two witnesses can do. 

Those gentiles come from the north. The daily sacrifice is abolished upon their arrival. 1290 days afterward the abomination of desolation is placed in Jerusalem. That is after the beast from the Pitt has conquered Jerusalem and killed its defenders. 

Have you ever heard of the Samson option? It's Israel's last resort. When your enemies have overcome you, you destroy yourself and everyone who has attacked you. You destroy your own land and your own people and you destroy all the nations and peoples who is responsible for your downfall. You cast it all into the fire. 

Speaking of the king of Babylon, Isaiah wrote, 

Isaiah 14:20

you will not join them in burial, for you have destroyed your land and killed your people. Let the offspring of the wicked never be mentioned again.

Edited November 6, 2022 by Shilohsfoal

[Michael37]

15 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Oh no, they are not pitted against each other in Jerusalem. The Gentiles and the two witnesses arrive  the same time and they occupy Jerusalem the same time together. 

And while the two witnesses torment the nations, those gentiles do the same. I've read about what those gentiles do during those 42 months in another book. I also know they are capable of doing everything scripture says the two witnesses can do. 

Those gentiles come from the north. The daily sacrifice is abolished upon their arrival. 1290 days afterward the abomination of desolation is placed in Jerusalem. That is after the beast from the Pitt has conquered Jerusalem and killed its defenders. 

Have you ever heard of the Samson option? It's Israel's last resort. When your enemies have overcome you, you destroy yourself and everyone who has attacked you. You destroy your own land and your own people and you destroy all the nations and peoples who is responsible for your downfall. You cast it all into the fire. 

Speaking of the king of Babylon, Isaiah wrote, 

Isaiah 14:20

you will not join them in burial, for you have destroyed your land and killed your people. Let the offspring of the wicked never be mentioned again.

Opinions noted. When it comes to the Seven Seals I like to stay pure to the written narrative completely free of references from other books of the Bible so if something is not disclosed to John I don't sandwich it in to prove some theory.

[Shilohsfoal]

7 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Opinions noted. When it comes to the Seven Seals I like to stay pure to the written narrative completely free of references from other books of the Bible so if something is not disclosed to John I don't sandwich it in to prove some theory.

The best way to learn from the Bible is from comparing scripture. 

[Michael37]

20 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

The best way to learn from the Bible is from comparing scripture. 

Comparison is always second to context.