Intelligent Design Discussion

[The Barbarian]

On 2/28/2020 at 8:28 AM, enoob57 said:

Quote

A literal reading of Genesis shows that birds were created with sea creatures on day five while land animals were not created until day six.

This is in direct contradiction to the evidence God left for us, which is another reason we know that the creation story should not be interpreted as a literal history.

 

 

[The Barbarian]

20 hours ago, Starman said:

Does that means that evolutionary biology should not be considered a scientific discipline since Macroevolution is not replicable?

Since it's  been observed numerous times, that's definitely replicable.   Even the major creationist organizations now admit the fact of speciation.   They just redefined the world "evolution" to exclude any evolution that could be observed in a human lifetime.  

They admit the formation of new species, genera, and families (sometimes more than that), but they say "it's not real evolution."

It's like a burglar saying that if he takes things worth less than $100,000, "it's not real burglary."

 

 

[Starman]

7 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

This is in direct contradiction to the evidence God left for us, which is another reason we know that the creation story should not be interpreted as a literal history.

I’m not necessarily disagreeing, but you must understand that a fundamental Christian who believes in biblical infallibility and inerrancy cannot accept your statement. To do so requires the potential destruction of an essential plank of the standard Christian faith.  The issue then ceases to be about the evidence for evolution and becomes a debate about the nature of Scripture, and even the existence of God himself.  This is the reason for the heated discussion with Dad2 and others.  They are defending their faith and discussion about evolution is only the vehicle.  They are understandably riled by your cavalier statements about these issues. No matter how much evidence you present unless it is compatible with an orthodox biblical view agreement will never be reached. I assume you know this, but you may want to consider when this discussing the topic on a Christian forum. 

[The Barbarian]

5 hours ago, Starman said:

I’m not necessarily disagreeing, but you must understand that a fundamental Christian who believes in biblical infallibility and inerrancy cannot accept your statement.

I get that. 

Biblical inerrancy is the belief that the Bible "is without error or fault in all its teaching"

Geisler, NL. and Roach, B., Defending Inerrancy: Affirming the Accuracy of Scripture for a New Generation, Baker Books, 2012.

 

So, in matters of faith and practice, the Bible is never wrong.    It can be wrong about the value of pi, the physical processes of stars,  DNA, and so on, since these are not matters of faith or practice.'

[Starman]

29 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

So, in matters of faith and practice, the Bible is never wrong.    It can be wrong about the value of pi, the physical processes of stars,  DNA, and so on, since these are not matters of faith or practice.

Actually, the doctrine is stricter than that. Here is a typical wording that is affirmed by most evangelicals:

”Biblical inerrancy is the belief that the Bible"is without error or fault in all its teaching";or, at least, that "Scripture in the original manuscripts does not affirm anything that is contrary to fact". Some equate inerrancy with biblical infallibility; others do not.The belief is of particular significance within parts of evangelicalism”

That means that even implying that the Genesis account is anything other than fact is considered a “liberal” form of Christianity and violates the beliefs of many.
 

So basically when you make statements which seem to contradict Scripture you are likely offending a significant portion of people on this site. You would get less backlash by insulting someone’s mother.  

This makes it difficult for some to listen to your ideas on evolution since you are seen as The Barbarian who seeks to overthrow the sacred. 

Just sayin.  

Edited March 1, 2020 by Starman

[The Barbarian]

17 minutes ago, Starman said:

That means that even implying that the Genesis account is anything other than fact is considered a “liberal” form of Christianity and violates the beliefs of many.

The Genesis account is factual.   Do you think God's other parables aren't true, because they are figurative?

18 minutes ago, Starman said:

So basically when you make statements which seem to contradict Scripture 

Nothing I've said here contradicts anything in scripture.    It does contradict some things people have read into scripture on their own.

19 minutes ago, Starman said:

you are likely offending a significant portion of people on this site. You would get less backlash by insulting someone’s mother.  

That's very sad to consider, but likely true.

20 minutes ago, Starman said:

This makes it difficult for some to listen to your ideas on evolution since you are seen as The Barbarian who seeks to overthrow the sacred. 

Ironically, I picked up the name because I was defending faith in God.  A bumptious atheist on another board told me that Christianity was "barbaric."    I said "call me a barbarian,then."    It stuck.

You do know that some of the earliest of Christ's followers were barbarians, right?

 

[Starman]

16 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

The Genesis account is factual.   Do you think God's other parables aren't true, because they are figurative?

What I think isn’t the point here.  

[The Barbarian]

38 minutes ago, Starman said:

What I think isn’t the point here.  

This one...

56 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

That means that even implying that the Genesis account is anything other than fact is considered a “liberal” form of Christianity

The Genesis account is factual.    It's just not what some people have revised it to be.

 

[Starman]

17 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

The Genesis account is factual.   Do you think God's other parables aren't true, because they are figurative?

Some questions come to mind:

1. Please explain what you mean when you say, "the Genesis account is factual." Where are the facts in the account and in what sense is the account true?

2. A parable is generally defined as a fictitious story used to demonstrate a religious truth or idea. How does the Genesis account fit that definition (or perhaps yo define parable differently)?  

 

[The Barbarian]

6 minutes ago, Starman said:

1. Please explain what you mean when you say, "the Genesis account is factual." Where are the facts in the account and in what sense is the account true?

I mean that it is true.    When St. Augustine wrote De Genesi ad Litteram, he meant by "the literal meaning", what it actually says.   That is, it's a figurative account and must be taken in that way, just as the parables of Jesus are true, even though they are figurative.

8 minutes ago, Starman said:

2. A parable is generally defined as a fictitious story used to demonstrate a religious truth or idea. 

A parable is a short and simple story that teaches a religious or moral lesson.

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/parable

Parables.—The word parable (Heb. MSLH, mashal;Syr. mathla, Gr. parabole) signifies in general a comparison, or a parallel, by which one thing is used to illustrate another. It is a likeness taken from the sphere of real, or sensible, or earthly incidents, in order to convey an ideal, or spiritual, or heavenly meaning. As uttering one thing and signifying something else, it is in the nature of a riddle (Heb. khidah, Gr. ainigma or problema) and has therefore a light and a dark side,—”dark sayings”, Wis., viii, 8; Ecclus., xxxix, 3; it is intended to stir curiosity and calls for intelligence in the listener, “He that hath ears to hear, let him hear” Matt., xiii, 9. Its Greek designation (from paraballein, to throw beside or against) indicates a deliberate “making up” of a story in which some lesson is at once given and concealed. As taking simple or common objects to cast light on ethics and religion, it has been well said of the parable that “truth embodied in a tale shall enter in at lowly doors.” It abounds in lively speaking figures, and stands midway between the literalism of mere prose and the abstractions of philosophy. What the Hebrew MSHL is derived from we do not know. If connected with Assyrian mashalu, Arab. matala, etc., the root meaning is “likeness”. But it will be a likeness which contains a judgment, and so includes the “maxim”, or general proposition bearing on conduct (Greek “gnomic wisdom”), of which the Book of Proverbs (Meshalim) is the chief inspired example.

https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/parables

The parable is a literary device used often by Jesus Christ in his teachings. While Christ used the parable, according to Matthew 13:10-17, he did not expect the crowds to understand them.

The word parable comes from the Greek, parabole, and is a metaphor or simile that makes a comparison drawn from everyday life. The parable draws the listener to its attention by its vividness or strangeness that engenders in the listener's mind enough doubt about its meaning to stimulate active thought.

The use of parables by Jesus was a continuation of their use in the Old Testament where the Jews were familiar with teaching by parables and, thus, their use by Jesus was a natural continuation.

The parables of Jesus are found in the three synoptic gospels and form a key part of his teaching. His parables, while seemingly simple, often with imagery, each conveys a message that is deep and central to his teaching. As keys to his teaching, the Orthodox Church continues to convey these messages through the liturgical services where often a parable is the lesson for the day.

Parables start the Paschal season with the story of the Pharisee and Publican and continues with the parables of the Prodigal Son and the Last Judgement. Through the year the lessons of Divine Liturgy include the parables of the Sower and the Seed, the Mustard Seed, the Unmerciful Servant, the Vineyard Workers and the Employer, the Good Samaritan, and others.

https://orthodoxwiki.org/Parable

From the very beginning, human beings have loved to listen to stories. And Jesus loved to tell them. The parables are vivid, rich,arresting stories that make us think and teach us lessons about our relationship with God and others. From talents to mustard seeds, from shepherds to Samaritans, Jesus used common reference points to teach important truths.

But the parables are filled with ambiguity and room for interpretation. With historical and cultural background, and careful scholarly detail

https://www.amazon.com/Conversations-Scripture-Parables-Anglican-Association/dp/0819221678

I don't see "fictional" therein.

 

14 minutes ago, Starman said:

How does the Genesis account fit that definition (or perhaps yo define parable differently)?  

The three great branches of Christianity seem to do so, yes.