Salvation...Can it be lost???

[Kansasdad]

For one to hold to free-will on the part of man, they cannot hold to eternal security. If salvation is totally dependant on a decision man makes, then it stands to reason that if man decides at some subsequent point to recant, that they can undecide.

Otherwise, one is holding that free will applies only up to the point of salvation, then is removed subsequently.

Arminius held that people could lose their salvation

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I see this as a key point to the debate.

thanks Eric.

Kansas Dad

[sail2awe]

SuperJew, and Everyone:

I put your name on this SuperJew because you made a statement to the effect that grace is the only thing of distinction. Please goto the link below for an accurate responce to said statement.

http://www.worthyboards.com/forums/index.p...howtopic=26313#

For one to hold to free-will on the part of man, they cannot hold to eternal security. If salvation is totally dependant on a decision man makes, then it stands to reason that if man decides at some subsequent point to recant, that they can undecide.

EricH

Taking your first sentence to the next level, If a person did the above <renounced truth>, then there was nothing to recant in the first place, they had only embraced deception.

Eternal Security is a HUGE doctrine.

halifaxchristian

It actually takes up less volume than anything else, because it is not aimed to inforce the law, which is a huge volume.

If all sins are deliberate, why does Hebrews use the word wilful in describing certain sins?

Butero

I tried to say, but maybe I can do better this time. The subject of willful sin is compared to calling the holy blood that saves the Hebrew believers is being compared to the sacrifice of animals which can never take away sin. If these overcoming believers was to draw back unto the law and look for the blood of animals to take away their sin, then there is no more sacrifice for sin. There is no more sacrifice for sin because animal blood doesn't work, and Christ died once for all.

Doesn't that make perfect since? Paul is summing up all he has said in the previous chapters.

Edited August 11, 2005 by sail2awe

[halifaxchristian]

Thankyou sail!!!

[sail2awe]

This is from another thread, but it may apply to the topic of this thread too. The question really is, who's faith is it, by which Salvation comes?

"The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham" (Gal. 3:8).

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it, and was glad" (John 8:56).

Here, however, in Romans 16:25-27 is a mystery, and that mystery something that had been silenced. It cannot, therefore, possibly be the same thing as the gospel preached in Romans one. It is not stated, however, in Romans I :1,2, or in any of the passages that link the gospel with the O.T. Scriptures, that the gospel was fully made known before the coming of Christ. Take for example Romans I: 17:

"For therein (i.e. the gospel of Christ, 1:16) is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith, according as it hath been written" (in Hab. 2:4) "The just shall live by faith".

Without the fuller light of the gospel of Christ, it would not be evident from the passage in Habakkuk that the power of the gospel of Christ resided in the provision of a righteousness by faith. This will be evident if we quote the passage:

"For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry. Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith" (Hab. 2:3-4).

But this provision is now "revealed' , and in the hands of an inspired Apostle can be confirmed by such passages as Habakkuk 2:4, although the teaching does not lie on the surface. Again, having quoted many passages from the O.T. Scriptures, the Apostle says:

"But now" (in contrast to the period "then") "the righteousness of God, apart from law, has been manifested" (perfect tense) "being borne witness to" (present tense) "by the law and the prophets, even the righteousness of God with is by faith of Jesus Christ" (Rom. 3:21,22).

Here the "manifestation" takes place before the "witness" can be borne by O.T. prophets. So in Romans 16:26, we read of something that has been kept in silence, but which was then made manifest.

Clothed in this righteousness, nothing of self is seen by God. Like the stones in the Temple, they were covered over first with cedar-wood; and the cedar-wood was covered over with gold. Then it is added, "there was no stone seen." These words are not necessary either for the grammar, or for the sense; for how could the stone be seen if thus doubly covered up? No! the words are graciously added to emphasize the antitype, and to impress upon us the blessed fact that, when covered with Christ's righteousness there is nothing of self seen in our standing before God. We are already "in the heavenlies, in Christ"; and are comely in all His comeliness, perfect in all His perfection, accepted in all His merit, righeous as He is righteousness; yea, holy as He is holy, and loved as He is beloved. All this is included in those words, "found in Him."

And being thus "found in Him" for our standing, we have in verses 20, 21 our hope; which, is to be

LIKE HIM

in resurrection and ascension glory at His coming. Hence "we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able to subdue all things unto himself."

This is our "blessed hope." The beginning and the end of our Christian course.

Is it possible that, if the true God were known--the great, the High and Holy God, who dwelleth not in temples made with hands; the God who inhabiteth eternity; the God in whose sight the very heavens are not clean, and who chargeth His angels with folly--is it possible, that nay who know Him could imagine, for one moment, that, He "seeks" or could be pleased with, or accept, or regard a congregation turning the Bible into "a book of the words," whereby we dictate the terms of Salvation based upon which verses we preferr?

Edited August 11, 2005 by sail2awe

[halifaxchristian]

Sail...I am not a Calvinist...but you are. So I ask you this...why bother even trying to teach us anything? We don't have freewill to accept it or not, right? We are all appointed unto heaven or hell, right? So why bother???

Vanity.

[sail2awe]

I don't know what a Calvanist is. I am a Bible student. I see terms like oneness and stuff, but I don't even care to look it up. The word denomination comes from the same word as division, and then, I am back into the open Book.

Mine says that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess and give glory unto the Lord

We also read of two resurrections at least. In these two, one is still referred to as 'the dead', both in the OT and the New. These who are still considered 'the dead' are in a great time of teaching where the rule is likened to one of a rule of iron.

After the time of teaching, there is still many many fulfillments which need to take place before the words 'then cometh the end' manifest. One of these are those who are 'hurt of the second death'.

So, in my view, there is still so much to learn that I am glad I know that the riches and fulness of the word of God can never be fully plumbed by the mind of man. And the mind of this man knows nothing. The only understanding of merit is the God's understanding. If that makes me a Calvanist or not, I could't tell you. My aim is to find where every word is in its rightful position wherein God has divided it, and give thanks and praises unto The Great God and our Savior Jesus Christ.

Regarding Salvation, it is the time of grace, we don't even have to believe, there is no judment in the flesh. Overcomers will come to know God. It is better to submit now, bow the knee and confess that I know nothing now, rather than in resurrection when it will become more than obvious what has happened. For now? Where there is grace, judgment and law cannot co-exist. Grace is seperate from law. When the times of the gentiles are full, it will, God will again deal with His people by allowing the son of perdition to set up his kingdom with only 144,000 Hebrews sealed in the truth of that. As Christians, we are already supposed to understand and believe it.

Yes, when the Lord intervenes in this worlds affairs, there will be great wrath, and that is why we don't see Him stopping the terrorists on Sept 11. At the Lords coming, we read nothing of universal peace and harmony, but of great judgment, wrath, reaping, as lightening with great clouds of witnesses who are the angels in heaven.

Edited August 11, 2005 by sail2awe

[Guest Neirfane]

No you can't loose it. i got into an arugument at work about this and researched it again the other night. You loose the joy of it. which i think is most the time ppl get saved and they go out the back doors of the church or whatevedr and thats that. your left with your new salvation and lil else but that and hopefully a bible.

you don't have to get resaved. LOL. i feel sorry for all you who think you can and live in fear and doubt. john 3.:16 said whoever believes ya know. sheesh.

here is some scripute for ya.

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

and

from the lords own mouth, but if i were you i'd read it all.

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

I believe there is more in John chapter 6. but i saved the most important one for last. the reason why ppl can't understand the bible.

specificlaly 14 and 15

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Our father be with you my brothers, sisters and mother

The Lord's blessings upon you with love and mercy

Mike H.

[halifaxchristian]

Amen brother to that last post!!!

By the way...sail2awe...I respect the fact that you claim to want to seek the truth of God's Word...I do. However, I must say this: the more I read your threads, the more you confuse me. I feel as if you tend to jump around the bush, rather than right into it... just thought maybe you can start being more direct??? Anyway, God bless you in your journeys.

Michael.

[Joy in the Journey]

The only way I can have spot on my garment, is to deliberately violate God's laws.

[apothanein kerdos]

Sail...I am not a Calvinist...but you are.  So I ask you this...why bother even trying to teach us anything?  We don't have freewill to accept it or not, right?  We are all appointed unto heaven or hell, right?  So why bother???

Vanity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's hyper Calvinism, that God directs every single one of our thoughts and actions. Calvinism simply teaches that God has ordained who will be saved. Those that are saved still have the will to sin and turn away from God, but are eternally His and His perfect work has begun in them. That is Calvinism, that He has chosen who will come to Grace, not that He controls all of our actions.

Of course, I disagree with both