abcdef Posted August 27, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,405 Content Per Day: 0.92 Reputation: 135 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/14/1951 Share Posted August 27, 2020 11 hours ago, R. Hartono said: How cud the sun be darkened n smite people with painful heat at the same time then ? Because they are showing two different groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Hartono Posted August 28, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 777 Topics Per Day: 0.34 Content Count: 6,955 Content Per Day: 3.04 Reputation: 1,985 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/15/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted August 28, 2020 12 hours ago, abcdef said: Because they are showing two different groups. The sun shines thru out the whole world man, if its darkened then the whole world suffer, the same thing if it scorched people with heat, the whole world suffer, there cannot be two different groups under the effect of the sun. ??????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serving Posted August 28, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 934 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 905 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/05/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1969 Author Share Posted August 28, 2020 On 8/27/2020 at 7:41 AM, abcdef said: Have you considered that the trumpets and vials run parallel in the same time frame, instead of consecutive? Hi abcdef, I've considered and thought about it yes, here's where I am at .. I approach this prophecy in the same light/method that God used through Moses with Pharaoh, that being, it was a set process that came in consecutive stages. Same approach. My reasoning? Every prophecy I've read I've noticed that God always brings about His will in stages .. be they blessings or punishments, they always come in set stages that He lays out to bring about His will in a consistent and identifiable manner I see this prophecy no different, I see this prophecy unfolding by the same method God always used/uses .. and it makes logical sense to me, and is biblically sound to me. One thing I must point out though .. something I think many people overlook when approaching this prophecy .. it's not only the 7 plagues being unleashed during the 3 1/2 years they take place within, but the two witnesses will also be unleashing plagues during the same time frame .. and what does scripture say the two witnesses will do? It says, Rev 11:6 "These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. It is quite possible/likely that the two witnesses will operate by passing predetermined judgements at preset times .. and whenever a predetermined judgement is passed, as laid out in the 7 trump/vial order .. 1 angel will respond to the two witnesses "judgement call" in kind .. rinse and repeat all the way through to angel #7. Then add this to the equation from the above explanation/and aforementioned highlighted scripture : "as often as they will" .. "As often as they will" is NOT the same as the preset 7 plagues of the 7 angels already laid out, so there will likely be the 7 plagues PLUS whatever plagues the two witnesses unleash along with the effects of the 7 trump/vials. Notice the two witnesses are killed not long before the 2nd coming itself .. That means that they MUST be operating at the same time the wrath of God is being unleashed .. meaning, the 1260 days the two witnesses prophesy for, are taking place within the 1290 days, or .. more plainly put, taking place during the last 3 1/2 years before Christ's return during the same time frame the false prophet is also operating within. So in conclusion, the effects of the 7 angels aren't the only effects the world must endure during that time period, but it must also endure whatever plagues the two witnesses release ALONG WITH those after affects of the 7 plagues themselves. I hope this explains my position clearly enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serving Posted August 28, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 934 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 905 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/05/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1969 Author Share Posted August 28, 2020 On 8/27/2020 at 8:47 AM, R. Hartono said: How cud the sun be darkened n smite people with painful heat at the same time then ? Hi Hartono .. Likely the 4th trumpet sounds, the third part of the moon & sun is darkened as a result .. people look up and say to each other, "what's coming now" ? and then the corresponding vial is poured out not long after, who knows, 12 hours later perhaps and then bam !!! Great heat follows. As valid an explanation as the next, it's just a matter of biblical perspective is all. This is my explanation anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcdef Posted August 28, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,405 Content Per Day: 0.92 Reputation: 135 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/14/1951 Share Posted August 28, 2020 9 hours ago, Serving said: Hi abcdef, I've considered and thought about it yes, here's where I am at .. I approach this prophecy in the same light/method that God used through Moses with Pharaoh, that being, it was a set process that came in consecutive stages. Same approach. My reasoning? Every prophecy I've read I've noticed that God always brings about His will in stages .. be they blessings or punishments, they always come in set stages that He lays out to bring about His will in a consistent and identifiable manner I see this prophecy no different, I see this prophecy unfolding by the same method God always used/uses .. and it makes logical sense to me, and is biblically sound to me. One thing I must point out though .. something I think many people overlook when approaching this prophecy .. it's not only the 7 plagues being unleashed during the 3 1/2 years they take place within, but the two witnesses will also be unleashing plagues during the same time frame .. and what does scripture say the two witnesses will do? It says, Rev 11:6 "These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. It is quite possible/likely that the two witnesses will operate by passing predetermined judgements at preset times .. and whenever a predetermined judgement is passed, as laid out in the 7 trump/vial order .. 1 angel will respond to the two witnesses "judgement call" in kind .. rinse and repeat all the way through to angel #7. Then add this to the equation from the above explanation/and aforementioned highlighted scripture : "as often as they will" .. "As often as they will" is NOT the same as the preset 7 plagues of the 7 angels already laid out, so there will likely be the 7 plagues PLUS whatever plagues the two witnesses unleash along with the effects of the 7 trump/vials. Notice the two witnesses are killed not long before the 2nd coming itself .. That means that they MUST be operating at the same time the wrath of God is being unleashed .. meaning, the 1260 days the two witnesses prophesy for, are taking place within the 1290 days, or .. more plainly put, taking place during the last 3 1/2 years before Christ's return during the same time frame the false prophet is also operating within. So in conclusion, the effects of the 7 angels aren't the only effects the world must endure during that time period, but it must also endure whatever plagues the two witnesses release ALONG WITH those after affects of the 7 plagues themselves. I hope this explains my position clearly enough? Yes, it looks like the standard pretrib position generally. ------ But what if the trumpets are not consecutive to the trumpets, but are happening at the same time period, to different groups. This would be that the 7 vials are about the people of the beast, and the trumpets are about Israel rejecting the gospel kingdom. Israel suffers for rejecting the gospel, at the same time that the people of the beast suffer for persecuting Israel and the kingdom. -------- The first 4 trumpets and vials are both effecting the same areas of creation Rev 14:7, heavens, earth, sea, and the fountains of waters. Can you expand on the definitions of these parts of creation? -------- What other similarities are there between the 5th, 6th , and 7th events? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serving Posted August 29, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 934 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 905 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/05/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1969 Author Share Posted August 29, 2020 On 8/29/2020 at 2:22 AM, abcdef said: But what if the trumpets are not consecutive to the trumpets, but are happening at the same time period, to different groups. This would be that the 7 vials are about the people of the beast, and the trumpets are about Israel rejecting the gospel kingdom. Well Rev 8:13 tells us that the trumpets affect the inhabiters of the earth, this tells me the trumpets are not solely for Israel but are global : "And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!" And Rev 16:2 deals with all who have taken the mark of the beast, that would include the people of Israel for they take the mark of the beast too, the whole world does : "And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image." Quote Israel suffers for rejecting the gospel, at the same time that the people of the beast suffer for persecuting Israel and the kingdom. "Israel" already suffered for rejecting Christ's gospel .. 70ad fulfilled that. Quote The first 4 trumpets and vials are both effecting the same areas of creation Rev 14:7, heavens, earth, sea, and the fountains of waters. Can you expand on the definitions of these parts of creation? Not sure what angle you're coming from, what kind of answer you're actually asking for in relation to the overall topic? What I believe God is doing within those first 4 trump/vials affecting the earth,sea & fountains of waters, besides them being punishments .. is that God is not only disrupting the global "natural foundations" upon the earth by targeting these things, being earth (arable land), sea (already dangerously low oceanic food stocks), fountains of water (already dwindling & accessible drinking water), but He has enacted a process of dismantling the global orders "sustainability" .. the effects of course will be another "agitation" speeding up the breakdown of the global alliance/beast system itself in preparation for the then still future & coming Third world war taking place right before the Armageddon event. Cause and effect not only punishing/affecting global populations but also pushing the global order to breaking point whereby it fractures once more into opposing blocks before it's destruction. Quote What other similarities are there between the 5th, 6th , and 7th events? Well the 5th trump talks about stinging "Locust's" that cause unbearable pain and the 5th vial talks about the peoples gnawing their tongues from the pain & their sores .. stings cause deep muscle pain when multiple stings are suffered & they also leave behind sores .. obviously. So they both speak of everybody suffering pain .. the trump explains the source of that pain (Locust's), the vials explain the severity and physical result of that pain. Both the 6th trump & vial deal with the Euphrates .. both trumps & vials focus on enemy spiritual moves being initiated of whose actions are directly affecting and sent amongst mankind/the nations. 7th trump & vial declare the ending of the 7 angel process, 7th trump says "Finished", 7th vial says "It is done". But that's not the end of wrath all together .. that's just the wrath of the 7 angel judgement/process being completed. The Lord still pours out more wrath after the 7 angel judgement .. He has yet to personally "visit" targeted nations and all surviving world leaders .. notice the world leaders are trembling at the face of Him who is sitting on His throne ? This is because the Lord has now reclaimed His earthly throne at the conclusion of the 7th trump/vial .. being, of course, after the Lord already came in the clouds and destroyed the gathered armies at Armageddon along with the global catastrophes accompanying that event .. so there's a more "Personal" or "Hands on" event still about to happen after the 7 trumps & vials. There's the Wrath of the 7 trumpet/vial process .. and then there's the actual Day of wrath immediately following the conclusion of the trumps/vials .. but that's another topic, though directly related, it is not the same wrath as the 7 trump/vial wrath. Hope that answers your questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcdef Posted September 1, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,405 Content Per Day: 0.92 Reputation: 135 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/14/1951 Share Posted September 1, 2020 On 8/29/2020 at 6:45 PM, Serving said: Well Rev 8:13 tells us that the trumpets affect the inhabiters of the earth, this tells me the trumpets are not solely for Israel but are global : "And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!" And Rev 16:2 deals with all who have taken the mark of the beast, that would include the people of Israel for they take the mark of the beast too, the whole world does : "And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image." In Dan.2:39, it says that the kingdom of brass, Greece, "Shall bear rule over all the earth." But Greece did not rule the planet, only the world of Israel, the earth of Israel. The idea that the world/earth means the planet, is a distorted modern day perception. On 8/29/2020 at 6:45 PM, Serving said: "Israel" already suffered for rejecting Christ's gospel .. 70ad fulfilled that. Yes, 70 AD and after, with a great emphasis on the time AFTER 70 AD, when the people of Israel were scattered among the gentile nations and persecuted by Rome. Why do people skip the 1900 years of suffering after the 70 AD destruction? They always skip this period of tribulation. On 8/29/2020 at 6:45 PM, Serving said: Not sure what angle you're coming from, what kind of answer you're actually asking for in relation to the overall topic? I hope that we are comparing the trumpets to the vials to see if they are in sequence or that they happen at the same time on the timeline. On 8/29/2020 at 6:45 PM, Serving said: What I believe God is doing within those first 4 trump/vials affecting the earth,sea & fountains of waters, besides them being punishments .. is that God is not only disrupting the global "natural foundations" upon the earth by targeting these things, being earth (arable land), sea (already dangerously low oceanic food stocks), fountains of water (already dwindling & accessible drinking water), but He has enacted a process of dismantling the global orders "sustainability" .. the effects of course will be another "agitation" speeding up the breakdown of the global alliance/beast system itself in preparation for the then still future & coming Third world war taking place right before the Armageddon event. What if they are not global and only show the events as they apply to the people of Israel and the beast specifically? On 8/29/2020 at 6:45 PM, Serving said: Cause and effect not only punishing/affecting global populations but also pushing the global order to breaking point whereby it fractures once more into opposing blocks before it's destruction. The new world order is Rome, from the time that they invaded Israel until now. Rome and Caesar are the ones who have brought the new world order to Israel for the last 2000 years. On 8/29/2020 at 6:45 PM, Serving said: Well the 5th trump talks about stinging "Locust's" that cause unbearable pain Not literal. The locusts are false teachers Isa 9:15-16. The descriptions are showing the spiritual side of the entities and not the material appearance. On 8/29/2020 at 6:45 PM, Serving said: and the 5th vial talks about the peoples gnawing their tongues from the pain & their sores .. stings cause deep muscle pain when multiple stings are suffered & they also leave behind sores .. obviously. The 5th vial is on the seat of the beast. Where is the seat of the beast? The pain that they suffer is spiritual. On 8/29/2020 at 6:45 PM, Serving said: So they both speak of everybody suffering pain .. the trump explains the source of that pain (Locust's), the vials explain the severity and physical result of that pain. The location of the abyss opening is the seat of the beast, Rome. On 8/29/2020 at 6:45 PM, Serving said: Both the 6th trump & vial deal with the Euphrates .. both trumps & vials focus on enemy spiritual moves being initiated of whose actions are directly affecting and sent amongst mankind/the nations. Israel, The Bible centers on Israel. The movement of the entities in the 6th trumpet and the 6th vial show armies headed for Jerusalem. On 8/29/2020 at 6:45 PM, Serving said: 7th trump & vial declare the ending of the 7 angel process, 7th trump says "Finished", 7th vial says "It is done". But that's not the end of wrath all together .. that's just the wrath of the 7 angel judgement/process being completed. The 7th vial is the end of wrath on this planet, because after the 7th vial, there is no more planet, except a planet of fire. This is shown by the statement in Rev 15:8, that after the vial, people will be able to enter the temple, heaven, where Jesus is. On 8/29/2020 at 6:45 PM, Serving said: The Lord still pours out more wrath after the 7 angel judgement .. He has yet to personally "visit" targeted nations and all surviving world leaders .. notice the world leaders are trembling at the face of Him who is sitting on His throne ? This is because the Lord has now reclaimed His earthly throne at the conclusion of the 7th trump/vial .. being, of course, after the Lord already came in the clouds and destroyed the gathered armies at Armageddon along with the global catastrophes accompanying that event .. so there's a more "Personal" or "Hands on" event still about to happen after the 7 trumps & vials. There's the Wrath of the 7 trumpet/vial process .. and then there's the actual Day of wrath immediately following the conclusion of the trumps/vials .. but that's another topic, though directly related, it is not the same wrath as the 7 trump/vial wrath. The 7th trumpet ends the seals/trumpets time line. The 7th vial ends the vial time line, then another time line begins. The idea that the events that are shown after the time lines are ended, that they are occurring after them, is an assumption. The Revelation is not one continual time line. It has parallel timelines. On 8/29/2020 at 6:45 PM, Serving said: Hope that answers your questions. Yes thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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