The Bethel False Prophets

[JohnR7]

6 minutes ago, NotAllThere said:

Not in this case.

I hear you do not have a testimony without a trial. 

[Ozarkbound]

13 hours ago, NotAllThere said:

I'll bear that in mind next time someone promotes the Jehovah Witnesses. 

The time I lost all respect for Terry Virgo was when there were real issues in our church with the leadership, and his response was "Don't touch the Lord's anointed". 

First of all, that's the refuge of the insecure leader.

Secondly, David was saying "don't kill Saul". Not "don't criticise him". David criticised Saul plenty. So long as the criticism is with respect, it's perfectly acceptable. I speak entirely with respect to the people involved that TB was not from God, and that Bethel is church that is in deception.

But hey - you're not the arbiter of discussion here, so your attempts at shutting down discussion are note. And duly ignored.

Have a lovely day.

Are you speaking of the Terry Virgo who is a leader in the New Church Movement?

Edited November 15, 2020 by Ozarkbound

[Paul James]

2 hours ago, Tristen said:

“I reject every prophecy that comes from the Bethel "school of prophets" because the foundation of that church is non-Biblical and therefore cultish; therefore every prophecy and teaching that comes out of that movement is contaminated with spiritual poison”

Can you understand that all I see in the above statement is empty rhetorical bluster? I appreciate that you have an opinion, and maybe good reasons to believe what you do, but there is nothing in this statement that would cause a rational thinker to give any credence to your claims.

I'm seriously not trying to be difficult – just trying to get you to understand my perspective.

 

“At least we can recognise that movements like the JWs and the Mormons are cults because it is obvious that they do not conform to the true gospel of Christ”

If by “they do not conform to the true gospel of Christ” you mean they explicitly deny the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith (e.g. The Divine, exclusive Authority of authorised Scripture, the Eternal Deity of Christ, the Bodily Resurrection of Christ etc.), then yes, I agree.

 

“But movements like Bethel and Hillsong are much more deceptive because they identify themselves as Christian and appear to be passionate in their "christian" worship. But looking deeper into these movements and comparing them to Scripture, we see things that are missing from the New Testament and more compared to New Age mysticism, Hindu Kundalini, occult practices, and hypnotic suggestion; and this deception is leading unknowing people on the road to hell”

Again, there is nothing in this statement that would cause me to take it seriously; i.e. nothing of rational substance that would provoke me to consider these accusations as legitimate.

 

“So I compare the Bethel "school of the prophets" to the prophets of Baal on Mount Carmel, and to the 400 prophets who spoke from a lying spirit to advise King Ahab that he was going to win the battle. Those 400 prophets sounded exactly like the Bethel "school of prophets", and not like Michaiah who was thrown into prison because he spoke the truth - that Ahab was going to die. So I guess that according to what you are saying Michaiah was of the devil because he judged Ahab when all the other prophets were being positive and prophesying victory and future hope”

So in this story, you are the holy “prophet of the Lord”, speaking on behalf of God so that your word is beyond reproach – and is to be believed without question – and Bethel are the prophets infested with a “lying spirit”? Lol.

Michaiah was a prophet of God in a context where a false prophecy would cost his life. But you demonstrate no such fear of God or accountability in your accusations.

 

You can believe whatever you like.  No one is stopping you.  I'm not prophesying anything.  I just read the Bible and treat anything religious that is not in it as false and not of God.   In actual fact, I just a sinner and nothing at all, so you can accuse me until the cows come home and it won't make any difference to me.

[Uri]

On 11/8/2020 at 5:55 PM, Paul James said:

All of the Bethel prophets said quite conclusively that God said that Donald Trump will have a second term. It is obvious that this is not going to be the case. This means that their prophecies were totally false and did not come from God at all. I wondered about that, and the answer came to me: God purposely arranged for a demonic lying spirit to speak through the mouths of these prophets to clearly expose these dreamers and charlatans to show genuine Christians that God definitely did not send them nor did He speak through them. He did it to show that not one of these prophets are sent from Him, not previously, not now, or any time in the future. Therefore, don't be deceived and drawn away from the true gospel of Christ through the lies of these false prophets.

Firstly, no, it is absolutely NOT a foregone conclusion that this "will not happen". This election isn't even close to over.              We haven't even started the Civil War yet.

 

Second....nevermind. 

Don't wanna get started on Bethel...

[Heleadethme]

9 hours ago, Tristen said:

“Just was making the point in general that if someone is kind enough to give us a legitimate warning about some one or some thing, then the ball is in our court as to what to do with it”

I would respectfully suggest that it is not a “legitimate warning” if it's only an unsupported statement of accusation. By that standard, we would be free to slander any Christian, and claim it to be a “kind” gesture of “warning”. And it may very-well be a case of speaking against a work of God. Therefore, I firstly encourage extreme caution when considering making accusations against Christians. And I secondly encourage us to provide rationally strong arguments if we do decide that criticism is appropriate.

 

“Jesus warned that in the last days there would be false prophets and false christs....we need to sit up and take notice because, wow, that is being fulfilled in spades”

Sure – And I have not actually disputed any of the claims made in this thread. For me, the issue is one of examining our heart's intent, and how our methodology reflects that intent.

 

All I know is (to use an analogy), if someone were to come to my house yelling, look out the volcano is going to blow.....i would not stand there looking at the one warning and insist they give me proof the volcano is about to blow....i would be running out the door to see for myself.

There are many believers who already have long known Bethel is false and dangerous, it's old news for some of us.  If you aren't familiar with them, then recommend that you just go see for yourself and look into it.  Yes, I agree we shouldn't go around accusing people willy nilly, point taken,  but this isn't willy nilly just because proof isn't being brought on this one thread at this one time.  The church is in a terrible mess these days, if that is news to anyone, then I pray their eyes will be opened.  Many cannot see the falling away because they are still in it.

[NotAllThere]

9 hours ago, Ozarkbound said:

Are you speaking of the Terry Virgo who is a leader in the New Church Movement?

NFI.

[GandalfTheWise]

In this day and age, many Christians publicly practicing "discernment" are copying the social media practices of the world.  Much of what I've seen in public discernment is like so-called cancel culture where a mob mentality rules.  Accusation, anger, and reacting emotionally to out-of-context information are the main drivers of cancel culture.  Facts have little bearing and redemption is not allowed a place in it.   "I'm entitled to my opinion as well as to share it any time I feel like it and besides the person I'm accusing is so awful they deserve it" is accepted by many in the world but in my opinion is not a spiritually mature attitude to have.   Practicing discernment is like wielding a surgeon's scalpel.  In the hands of a skilled experienced surgeon, it can bring health and life.  In the hands of an inexperienced wannabe, it will more likely bring injury and death.  It needs to be done at the right time, in the right place, and in the right manner.  Some Christians wield it more like a butcher working on an impersonal side of beef than a surgeon carefully healing a human being.

The issue is not whether or not to point out errors.  The issue is how to do it spiritually, maturely, effectively, and at God's leading in a way that yields fruits of repentance and growth and builds the body of Christ.  When done unspiritually, immaturely, ineffectively, and in our own timing,  it leads to hard feelings, fights, and negative consequences that drive Christians apart and hinder ministry.   There's a reason most Christians in the body of Christ have expectations for a level of spiritual maturity, gifts, and abilities in anyone who participates in any ministry as well as a period of growth and mentorship of some type where they effectively learn to minister.   A tone deaf person with a poor but loud enthusiastic singing voice will likely be a distraction in a choir or worship team.  A new Christian who has not yet read the Bible through is unlikely to be an effective expository teacher no matter how educated they are or how good a public speaker they are.  Different people simply have gifts, talents, personalities, and experience that are much more suited to particular ministries than others.

Here's my analysis of the OP in light of these thoughts that pointing out errors and making accusations need to be done in an effective manner.  

All of the Bethel prophets said quite conclusively that God said that Donald Trump will have a second term. It is obvious that this is not going to be the case. This means that their prophecies were totally false and did not come from God at all. I wondered about that, and the answer came to me: God purposely arranged for a demonic lying spirit to speak through the mouths of these prophets to clearly expose these dreamers and charlatans to show genuine Christians that God definitely did not send them nor did He speak through them. He did it to show that not one of these prophets are sent from Him, not previously, not now, or any time in the future. Therefore, don't be deceived and drawn away from the true gospel of Christ through the lies of these false prophets.

I note there is no link to the original Bethel sources.  What are their names, how many of them, and was it all of them?  What did they say?  Who did they say this to?  All we have is a minimal summary which uses leading language such as "all of them" and "quite conclusively".   What were the specific predictions?   Why not put it out there for all of us to see and let us all judge it for ourselves?   Why do it now and not wait until after the processing of the election  results are certified, all court cases are resolved, and the electoral college has officially voted the winner in mid-December?    To not supply links or supporting information is poor practice and reduces effectiveness and credibility.   Even worse was the later attitude expressed by some that lack of documentation is completely acceptable and that criticizing lack of documentation is not acceptable.  

My sense of things is that a number of Christians predicted Trump would win while claiming various degrees of spiritual inspiration and certainty about this.  Did God put a lying spirit in all of their mouths to discredit them?  If so, why not name all of them?  If not, why only this group?  At what point was it uninformed zeal and wishful thinking that some Christians turned their hopes and beliefs into predictions rather than being driven by demons? In other words, how do we tell the difference between human error and demonic influence?   Does it mean any Christians predicting a Trump win are forever banned from any form of ministry?  Does it nullify everything they have ever said or will ever say?  To put it very bluntly, this is an accusation which in essence is claiming some degree of spiritual revelation or authority to make.  It's not clear what the phrase "the answer came to me" means.  Is this a claim of divine revelation of "God spoke this to me"?  Or is it a claim of about having special wisdom to see things others don't?  Or is it merely a possible human conjecture based on other information or previous opinion?  In any case, it is ultimately a claim of having adequate personal authority to make such an accusation public.   There is further a claim that "He did it to show that not one of these prophets are sent from Him, not previously, not now, or any time in the future".    This basically claims to know the mind of God. Where does proof of this come from?     If this is a conjecture and opinion, that should be made clear.  If it is a claim of special revelation of truth for all Christians to listen to, that should be made clear.

This is just off the top of my head as to why this is a less than effective example of pointing out error.  It assumes a lot of prior knowledge on the part of readers.  It does not provide any supporting links or information.  It makes claims about what is happening in the unseen spiritual realm.  It makes claims to know the mind of God in this matter.  It is a serious claim that leaders of a church are demonically influenced because God wants to discredit them.  Such claims need to be clearly and solidly documented.  Calls for documentation should not be dismissed but rather heeded.  If not, all we have is an empty accusation based on someone's opinion.

In my opinion, a much more effective OP would have been to link to a number of prophecies or predictions of a Trump win from a number of different people from the original sources in context.  This way we could read them all for ourselves and compare them and judge how much spiritual authority they were claiming.  It would have been more effective to wait until the election process is complete (which won't be until at least mid-December) to compare exactly what they said with what happened.  It would have been more effective to allow us to compare the Bethel predictions with others to get a sense of the potential demonic involvement with everyone who made an incorrect prediction.   It would have been more effective to clearly state how much spiritual authority is being claimed as to whether knowledge of demonic involvement came from special revelation, from special wisdom, or was merely an unsubstantiated conjecture.  All of those reading the OP would then be in a position to evaluate it.

Effectively pointing out errors and making accusations requires effort, care, and research.  It needs to be done with God's leading and with fruit of the Spirit and spiritual maturity evident in our tone and words and reasonings.  It requires us to allow others to clearly see what evidence we have and why we think what we do.  People who express their opinions are a dime a dozen.  Cancel culture is full of them and they have destroyed many lives doing this.  As Christians, we need to be very different from the world. We cannot simply post our opinions and ask other people to shun other Christians without presenting some compelling reasons for doing so.   This post is my opinion as to why the OP was ineffective and my reasons for thinking this.  This post also contains my opinion as to concrete actions that could be taken to make it more effective.  I spent a few hours writing this because I think this can be a good learning example as to how to more effectively contend for the truth in matters like these.  Please note that I have not commented directly on the validity of the OP but merely that it fails to give me any compelling reason to accept it.   A large part of effectively confronting errors is doing things in a way that builds credibility and gives people reasons to trust what we say.    Once we have established a long term pattern of saying credible and trustworthy things that people can trust, we might earn the privilege of being able to express opinions with a minimum of documentation.  But until then, we need to take the time and effort to do things effectively.

 

[Ozarkbound]

2 hours ago, NotAllThere said:

NFI.

Thanks, that's the same guy.

[NotAllThere]

Bethel.org is an Assemblies of God, which is a pentacostal denomination where each congregation is largely self-governing. AoG have declared Latter Rain teaching as not compatible with their core beliefs. 

The Bethel that is the subject of this thread is the Bethel Church, located in Redding, California, that has disaffiliated itself from the AoG. This is under bethel.com 

 

[Tristen]

On 11/16/2020 at 12:29 AM, Heleadethme said:

All I know is (to use an analogy), if someone were to come to my house yelling, look out the volcano is going to blow.....i would not stand there looking at the one warning and insist they give me proof the volcano is about to blow....i would be running out the door to see for myself.

There are many believers who already have long known Bethel is false and dangerous, it's old news for some of us.  If you aren't familiar with them, then recommend that you just go see for yourself and look into it.  Yes, I agree we shouldn't go around accusing people willy nilly, point taken,  but this isn't willy nilly just because proof isn't being brought on this one thread at this one time.  The church is in a terrible mess these days, if that is news to anyone, then I pray their eyes will be opened.  Many cannot see the falling away because they are still in it.

“All I know is (to use an analogy), if someone were to come to my house yelling, look out the volcano is going to blow.....i would not stand there looking at the one warning and insist they give me proof the volcano is about to blow....i would be running out the door to see for myself”

So then, if there was a claim of imminent danger, you would require more than the unverified, unqualified, unsupported word of another person?

Sure – in a context of imminent danger, you would verify the danger 'for yourself'. But what if there was no imminent danger? For example, should I be compelled to investigate every accusation against every well-known Christian on the basis of unverified, unqualified, unsupported accusations? If you want me to consider an accusation against a fellow Christian, shouldn't I expect more from your “warning” than an empty, nebulous claim?

 

“There are many believers who already have long known Bethel is false and dangerous, it's old news for some of us. If you aren't familiar with them, then recommend that you just go see for yourself and look into it”

Does the fact that the accusations are agreed upon in some circles absolve us of 1) our responsibility to be circumspect in our claims against potential Christians, or 2) our responsibility to be diligent in our arguments when we do decide make such claims in public?

 

“Yes, I agree we shouldn't go around accusing people willy nilly, point taken, but this isn't willy nilly just because proof isn't being brought on this one thread at this one time”

So every time there is an accusation against a putative Christian, I should just assume that there is a vast array of background information that warrants me taking the accusation seriously (even though no such information is provided with the accusation)?

To quote myself from a previous answer to you;

The Bible indicates to me that I should be reluctant to receive an accusation against Christian ministers (1 Timothy 5:19), and reluctant to cast judgement over my fellow servants of God (Romans 14:4), and if correction is required, to do so with meekness, fear and humility (1 Peter 3:15, 2 Timothy 2:25). We should expect more from ourselves than flippant, empty, unsupported accusations. The fear of God should motivate us to be more cautious about the possibility of so glibly speaking against a work of God.