SwordMaster Posted January 29, 2021 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 286 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 49 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/16/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 29, 2021 15 hours ago, Riverwalker said: To me it means following the lead of the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. At every cross road we have a choice to do something, but which is the right thing? Seeking guidance from the Holy Spirit , through prayer, through The Word of God, through what you know is the obedience of Christ, insures that we follow the path 2nd Cor 10:5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ. That is just my first take, you have give me something to ponder on, and I am going to ponder it a while. While I agree with this to a certain extent, it doesn't appear that it is the whole issue. For example... Romans 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Most commentaries on this verse agree that here Paul is again meaning "walking in the Spirit," but if walking in the Spirit is only following the voice and unctions of the Spirit when He would speak to us about something, which isn't very often, then what about the other times in between? Also, how does walking in the Spirit "put to death the deeds of the body" particularly if it is far and few in between when He speaks to us? And from personal inquiry of many people over the last 30 years, most people never hear the Spirit speak to them about anything. Just putting that out there. So, while I agree that following the leading of the Spirit is part of the issue, it doesn't appear that it is the whole of the issue. Thanks! . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul James Posted January 29, 2021 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 771 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 392 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/27/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/07/1947 Share Posted January 29, 2021 9 minutes ago, Josheb said: Great post, but what does it say about defining and understanding what walking in the Spirit means after regeneration and indwelling? Paul calls that "living in the Spirit". He assumes that those who live in the Spirit will walk in the Spirit so that their regeneration and indwelling is consistent with their conduct and behaviour. He makes clear to them what the works of the flesh, and what the fruit of the Spirit, are. Therefore, he is guiding them on the practicability of what walking in the Spirit involves. We can assume that believers will have asked him, "How do we walk in the Spirit?" And so he makes it clear what walking in the Spirit means. So, the baptism with the Spirit is the entry point to living in the Spirit. Our developing sanctification is us working on effectively walking in the Spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwordMaster Posted January 29, 2021 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 286 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 49 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/16/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 29, 2021 13 hours ago, Paul James said: Seeing that the major events of people being converted to Christ involved the Holy Spirit falling on them so that they spoke in tongues and prophesied as the Spirit gave them utterance, the question arises that if a person has not been baptised with the Spirit, can he or she actually walk in the Spirit? Actually, the only time in Scripture that people were converted and received the baptism in the Holy Spirit at the same time, was (maybe) Cornelius and his household. The 120 on the Day of Pentecost were already believers, they just received the baptism on that day but were already saved by what Scripture seems to indicate. So, the majority of people evidenced in Scripture did not get saved and receive the baptism of the Spirit at the same time. As for the question as to whether a person who has not been baptized in the Spirit can walk in the Spirit, that is actually a good question. Having spent some time considering that question before I continued typing, I think the answer is most likely yes. Paul gives no indication anywhere that in order to walk in the Spirit one must be baptized in the Spirit, nor can I find anything on that point anywhere else in the NT. The sentiment of Scripture seems to indicate that a person who has the indwelling Spirit is capable of walking in the Spirit, and part of that conclusion comes from Paul's comments regarding the carnal Corinthian church who most were obviously saved, but not walking in the Spirit. The direct opposite of walking in the Spirit, is walking in the flesh and being carnal, which he upbraids the Corinthians for being carnal and in the flesh. Thanks for the input! Blessings! .. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul James Posted January 29, 2021 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 771 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 392 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/27/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/07/1947 Share Posted January 29, 2021 1 minute ago, SwordMaster said: Actually, the only time in Scripture that people were converted and received the baptism in the Holy Spirit at the same time, was (maybe) Cornelius and his household. The 120 on the Day of Pentecost were already believers, they just received the baptism on that day but were already saved by what Scripture seems to indicate. So, the majority of people evidenced in Scripture did not get saved and receive the baptism of the Spirit at the same time. As for the question as to whether a person who has not been baptized in the Spirit can walk in the Spirit, that is actually a good question. Having spent some time considering that question before I continued typing, I think the answer is most likely yes. Paul gives no indication anywhere that in order to walk in the Spirit one must be baptized in the Spirit, nor can I find anything on that point anywhere else in the NT. The sentiment of Scripture seems to indicate that a person who has the indwelling Spirit is capable of walking in the Spirit, and part of that conclusion comes from Paul's comments regarding the carnal Corinthian church who most were obviously saved, but not walking in the Spirit. The direct opposite of walking in the Spirit, is walking in the flesh and being carnal, which he upbraids the Corinthians for being carnal and in the flesh. Thanks for the input! Blessings! .. Believing in Christ and being converted to Christ are two different things. The disciples believed in Christ along with all the others who believed in Him at the time. It is true that they were effectively saved through their belief in the same way that the thief on the cross went to be with Jesus to Paradise. But to make their calling and election sure, they needed to be converted to Christ, ie, be born again of the Holy Spirit, and that could only happen when Jesus went to be with the Father and the Holy Spirit came to the church, which He did on the Day of Pentecost. When the Holy Spirit came, the 120 were baptised with the Spirit and converted at the same time. The same happened to Cornelius' household and the Ephesian disciples. The Samaritans believed Philip's preaching of the gospel, but were fully converted to Christ when Peter and John came and laid hands on them. Paul had a big turn-around on the Damascus Road and because he now believed in Christ, he started praying. When Ananias came along, shared his vision with Paul, laid hands on him, Paul was baptised with the Spirit and converted to Christ. The prominent Puritan writers, in the golden time of Bible teaching, taught that one can believe the gospel, but full conversion to Christ must be earnestly sought for with all one's heart. Then the Holy Spirit does the work of conversion in the believer. The Puritans didn't have the revelation of the baptism with the Spirit in their time, but actually had it in practice through their teaching on conversion to Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwordMaster Posted January 29, 2021 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 286 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 49 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/16/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 29, 2021 7 minutes ago, Paul James said: So, the baptism with the Spirit is the entry point to living in the Spirit. Our developing sanctification is us working on effectively walking in the Spirit. Most of the first part of your response was confusing, but here I need to ask another question: if what you conclude here is true, then there are millions of born again Christians who have never been baptized in the Spirit, and your conclusion condemns them to never be able to walk in the Spirit. I find this very sour according the the attitude of Scripture. If only those who have been baptized in the Spirit can walk in the Spirit, and most Christians today have never been baptized by the Spirit, then is this not a black eye to Christ and the Spirit, who wants every Christian to walk in the Spirit? It seems so to me. There are those who believe, in direct contradiction to what Scripture teaches, that every person is baptized in the Spirit the moment they are saved...but again, Scripture does not teach this. If Scripture did teach this, then I could see your response had some Biblical legitimacy. But Scripture doesn't, so I can't see what you suggest as Scriptural (for lack of a better way to say it). Blessings! . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwordMaster Posted January 29, 2021 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 286 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 49 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/16/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 29, 2021 6 minutes ago, SONshine said: Also, our Father helps us to walk in the Spirit. Philippians 2:12-13 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure. I can see where one can get that out of the passage as given, but if I may, the Greek doesn't read like this. This is what verse 13 says according to the Greek and its grammar: Philippians 2:13 because God is also producing in you the desire and the ability to do what pleases Him. So, while I have no doubt that God helps us to walk in the Spirit, as He wants to help us in all things spiritual, the verse says that He produces the desire and ability to do what pleases Him, but He does not cause us to walk in the Spirit. That is what it sounds like in the version you gave, that's the only reason why I gave the more accurate translation above. Blessings! .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwordMaster Posted January 29, 2021 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 286 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 49 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/16/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 29, 2021 6 minutes ago, Paul James said: Believing in Christ and being converted to Christ are two different things. The disciples believed in Christ along with all the others who believed in Him at the time. It is true that they were effectively saved through their belief in the same way that the thief on the cross went to be with Jesus to Paradise. But to make their calling and election sure, they needed to be converted to Christ, ie, be born again of the Holy Spirit, and that could only happen when Jesus went to be with the Father and the Holy Spirit came to the church, which He did on the Day of Pentecost. We agree so far... 6 minutes ago, Paul James said: When the Holy Spirit came, the 120 were baptised with the Spirit and converted at the same time. The same happened to Cornelius' household and the Ephesian disciples. The Samaritans believed Philip's preaching of the gospel, but were fully converted to Christ when Peter and John came and laid hands on them. Here there are some problems according to Scripture. We are told in Scripture that over 400 people were present with Jesus on one of His subsequent appearances after the resurrection, we can safely assume that most of the 120 (if not all) were so present. Along with the apostles who were officially "saved" in John 20:22, we can also safely assume that these 120, if not the entire 400, experienced the same thing. Even if all of the 120 were not saved before they received the baptism, the 11 were. The 120 were already converted and saved, which are synonymous, before Pentecost. As for Cornelius and his household, when we pay attention to the entirety of Acts 10, we find that Cornelius was already saved because God had accepted him. The whole of chapters 9-11 have to do with the fact that the Jewish church up to this time had refused to preach the gospel to gentiles, and God had to sovereignly act in order to show the church that He also wanted gentiles too...anyone who would come to Him. Therefore, taking all of the facts into consideration, Cornelius and his household is not a prima-facie piece of evidence that supports your suggestion. The same goes with the Samaritans - they accepted the gospel and received water baptism into Christ, therefore they were saved and had the indwelling Spirit already. The ONLY reason Peter and John went down to Samaria was to baptize them in the Holy Spirit. They were already saved according to a strict reading of Scripture. 15 minutes ago, Paul James said: Paul had a big turn-around on the Damascus Road and because he now believed in Christ, he started praying. When Ananias came along, shared his vision with Paul, laid hands on him, Paul was baptised with the Spirit and converted to Christ. Actually, you are reading into Scripture what it does not say. No where in Acts 9 is it directly, or indirectly, implied that Paul was baptized in the Spirit when he converted to Christ. Acts 9:18 states only that he arose after regaining his sight, and received water baptism into Christ. No where does it imply that he ever received baptism in the Spirit. No then, I am not saying that he wasn't baptized with the Spirit, because I believe it is obvious by his life and words that he was. What I am saying is that Scripture does NOT tell us when he was baptized in the Spirit. And besides all this...nothing here actually addresses the question of the OP. But thanks for the input! Blessings .. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwordMaster Posted January 29, 2021 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 286 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 49 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/16/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 29, 2021 Before I got on this morning, I had the chance to go back and do some more studying, and in case it helps anyone else, this is what I have discovered on the subject... Romans 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but (who walk) according to the Spirit. ἵνα τὸ δικαίωμα τοῦ νόμου πληρωθῇ ἐν ἡμῖν τοῖς μὴ κατὰ σάρκα περιπατοῦσιν, ἀλλὰ κατὰ πνεῦμα· “walk” (Peripateo) is the word used here meaning to walk. Used with the Accusative, as it is here, it takes on the figurative meaning of manner or rule of something. In this sense, “walk” means living a lifestyle of practicing behavior according to the manner or rule of the Spirit. Also, peripateo here is in the Present Participle, meaning continuous or repeated action – in other words, practicing doing something. We receive more information about walking in the Spirit in the next verse... Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. οἱ γὰρ κατὰ σάρκα ὄντες τὰ τῆς σαρκὸς φρονοῦσιν, οἱ δὲ κατὰ πνεῦμα τὰ τοῦ πνεύματος. The first word here we need to examine, is the Greek word translated as “minds.” Here it is phroneo, which basically means to think, one’s mindset on something, to be minded, one’s attitude (thought patterns) about something. It directly implies the involvement of the will, affections, and/or conscience. In other words, one is doing the action of minding what he does mind. Phroneo here is in the present tense, again meaning that one is continuously, repeatedly, minding; he is practicing minding what he does. This again demonstrates (along with the Active voice) that the person is the one doing the action of thinking and dwelling upon these things in his mind. According to Zodhiates, “according to the flesh/Spirit” means “conforming to the will of the flesh or of the Spirit.” In this sense, it means that one is ‘minding’ (obeying) the Spirit (“You better mind me, young man!”). If one is conforming to the will of the Spirit, it means more simply that he is walking in obedience to the Spirit. If that is so, then what does “the Spirit” mean? Does it mean spiritual, godly things? Or does it mean doing what the Spirit might tell you to do, like Romans 8:14 says in those “who are led by the Spirit,” meaning that they follow and obey the leadings and unctions of the Spirit? So, I guess my thought that minding the Spirit as a result of walking in the Spirit was wrong, because Scripture here seems to dictate that the act of minding the things of the Spirit is a choice of our will. Therefore, perhaps, as with some of you who said the same thing, walking in the Spirit consists of "minding the things of the Spirit." Now, I am OK with that, but for how verse 9 reads, because it seems to be a direct contradiction... Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. This seems to indicate that walking in the Spirit is something that automatically takes place "if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you," but the previous verses speak contradictively against this interpretation. Got some things to do, will have to continue my examination later... . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waggles Posted January 29, 2021 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,790 Content Per Day: 0.77 Reputation: 983 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted January 29, 2021 18 hours ago, SwordMaster said: What do you think "walking in the Spirit" means? First a believer must be born again by water and Spirit. The Holy Spirit helps such a disciple to love the word of God and to yield unto the scriptures. The Holy Spirit also helps to convict a disciple of sin and wrongdoing, and when we allow ourselves to be led by the Spirit to overcome we become more practiced at walking in the Spirit. Thus walking in the Spirit is of righteousness (Romans 6) and exercising the power of the Spirit in our lives daily. This of course requires the Spirit-filled disciple to pray in tongues (praying in the Spirit) fervently permitting the Holy Spirit to directly commune with God (Jesus and our Father) Romans 8 The Spirit-filled disciple grows in the good things of God (Romans 12) and upholds their testimony for others to see (the epistles: children of light). Thus as we continue onwards being steadfast in love and good works we bear fruit to the Spirit in our conversation, our prudence, our discernment, our gentleness and humility, being like doves amongst wolves ... The question ought to be "What does Jesus consider walking in the Spirit to be?" And here is his answer for all of us: Galatians 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waggles Posted January 29, 2021 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,790 Content Per Day: 0.77 Reputation: 983 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted January 29, 2021 Ephesians 5:8 for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), 10 and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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