Walking in the Spirit

[Paul James]

1 hour ago, SwordMaster said:

Romans 8:9
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
 

Remember that in my last update post on this examination, this passage is what kept throwing me for a loop, because it appears to directly contradict verse 4-5 because in those verses, Paul seems to be saying that we cause ourselves to walk in the Spirit, and this verse says that if the Spirit indwells a person, he is automatically walking in the Spirit. And, again, God does not contradict Himself, so further investigation into these verses is necessary, which led me to the following:

Romans 8:9 in Greek:

ὑμεῖς δὲ οὐκ ἐστὲ ἐν σαρκὶ, ἀλλ ἐν πνεύματι, εἴπερ Πνεῦμα Θεοῦ οἰκεῖ ἐν ὑμῖν. εἰ δέ τις Πνεῦμα Χριστοῦ οὐκ ἔχει, οὗτος οὐκ ἔστιν αὐτοῦ. (verse 9 only)

  

The word de is a conjunctive particle which can mean either BUT (an adversative conjunction); AND (a continuative conjunction) or ALSO (an interrupted continuative conjunction) used when a previous thought that has been interrupted is now being returned to for further elaboration.

Most translations miss the way that Paul structures this section of his letter, and so translate it as “but.” In verses 6-8 Paul interrupts his thoughts on those walking in the Spirit and temporarily addresses those walking in the flesh. Then in verse 9 he returns to his thoughts on those walking in the Spirit...so we have translated it accordingly, rendering de as “also” –

  

Also, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, since the Spirit of God is dwelling within you. But, if someone does not have the Spirit of Christ dwelling within him, then he does not belong to Christ.

 

A number of commentators and theologians (Meyer, Barnes, Clarke, Roberts, Jamieson, Faucet, Brown, Zodhiates, etc.) suggest that here Paul isn’t addressing so much the fact of being in the Spirit as he is the ability to be in the Spirit because the believer has the indwelling Spirit of God within them. JFB Commentary continues the thought, “It thus appears that to be “in the Spirit” means here to be under the dominion of our own renewed mind; because the indwelling of God’s Spirit is given as the evidence that we are “in the Spirit.”

In other words, the ability to walk in the Spirit only comes by God’s Spirit dwelling within the believer, and the more the believer renews his mind the greater extent that he will be able to walk in the Spirit, having God’s Word internalized and affecting the background of all that he sees, hears, and thinks.

So, after I came to this last night, there no longer appears to be a conflict between the three verses. In particular, the introduction of renewing one's mind into the discussion hits home with my mind...how can one mind the things of the Spirit if he is still unrenewed in his mind by the Word of God?

 

What do ya'all think?

.

.

 

The term "baptism with the Spirit" is mentioned just twice in the New Testament.  The first time is from John the Baptizer.  He was talking to the godless who needed to repent, and for those who are obstinate, the baptism with the Spirit and with fire will be that the Holy Spirit will fall on them with the fire of judgment.

The second time is when Jesus referred to what John said, but applied it to His disciples, inferring that John's baptism was with water, but there will be a more effective baptism, and that will be with the Holy Spirit.   This was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost, and was further seen in Cornelius' household and the Ephesian disciples.

It seems to me that the baptism with the Spirit is linked with the reference to the Holy Spirit baptising believers into the body of Christ.  This is suggested by Paul in Galatians, when he asked, "Did you receive the Spirit through works of the Law or through faith?"   When we put these together, we can see that being baptised with the Spirit is the same as receiving, or being indwelled with the Spirit, with the result that the believer is then living in the Spirit.

It also seems to me, after examining all the references to groups receiving and believing the gospel, including the three examples already mentioned, along with the Samaritans, and Paul, that in the first instance, a person believes the gospel and receives Christ as Saviour.  At this point the person is justified by God's grace through his faith.   But that is just the entrance point.

I concede that the disciples were saved because of their faith in Jesus, who was still present with them.  We must remember that until the Day of Pentecost, believers were still subject to the Old Covenant;  therefore they were on the same level as all the Old Testament believers.  It wasn't until Jesus was ascended, made Lord and Christ and seated at the right hand of the Father, that He sent the Holy Spirit to usher in the New Covenant and give birth to the church.

On the Day of Pentecost, the 120 received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  That totally changed them from the frightened group they were beforehand, to the bold, worshiping group that spilled out on the street praising and declaring the wonderful works of God in the regional languages of the crowd of pilgrims.  Peter was transformed from the frightened man who denied Jesus, to the bold preacher of the gospel that he was on that day, with the result that 3000 souls were saved.  The transformation was the reception and indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  In other words, the total transformation was actually conversion to Christ.

Mental assent to the gospel and personal decision for Christ as Saviour is not automatic conversion.  True conversion to Christ has to be evidenced by a total change of attitude to Christ, direction of life, with their total commitment and passion for Christ clearly displayed to those who know them.   If a person says they are converted to Christ, and no difference is seen in them from what they were before, then there is no evidence that conversion has actually taken place.

So, to be able to walk in the Spirit, one has to have the indwelling Holy Spirit in order to be living in the Spirit.  Anyone can join a church, start walking and talking religion, show some knowledge of the Bible, live a moral life, even progress to be an elder or pastor, but this is not evidence of a genuine conversion to Christ, nor is it evidence of a walk in the Spirit.

True evidence of a walk in the Spirit is the clear testimony of Jesus as a wonderful Saviour through the life of that person.   This is an important component of prophecy - the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.  This means that a converted Christian testifying of what Jesus has done on the cross and through His resurrection, is the most powerful spirit of prophecy.

What I am saying is that just because a person makes a profession of Christianity, does not mean that he or she is genuinely converted to Christ.  There are definite signs of true conversion, and these are clearly outlined in Joseph Alleine's book "Alarm to the Unconverted", which is the best teaching outside of the Bible concerning true conversion.  Paul's teaching in Galatians 5 giving the contrast between the works of the flesh and the fruit of the Spirit is also helpful in discerning whether a person is truly converted to Christ or not.

To be able to walk in the Spirit, one must be totally and genuinely converted to Christ, and only the Holy Spirit can do that by indwelling and filling that person, and He will do that for those who show they mean business with God by seeking Him with all their heart.

[Paul James]

1 hour ago, Riverwalker said:

This opens a door wider to another topic

Is Salvation of the soul (the renewing of the mind) the same as salvation of the spirit?

When we come to Jesus and take him into and make room in our heart for Him, we are saved.  A done deal. God (the Holy Spirit) is with us and He will never forsake us. Salvation is a done deal

But there is still a lot of work to do in turning around our life. In renewing that mind to match the New Creation we have become 

2nd Corinthians 5: 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 

Its time to get busy and change our ways, reprogram our selves to walk in the Spirit, and not in the flesh.  But this is a process and it takes time, it doesn't happen over night.  This is what Paul meant when he wrote:

Philippians 2: 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Because trying to live a double life will just end in devastation of your life.  It is absolutely correct to think that when one becomes saved, they will follow this path, it is inevitable, but how long they will take to make the journey, is different for everyone.

The problem is that after the 4th Century AD, the church separated itself from the Holy Spirit and became a man-dominated, man-programmed religious entity where the authority of the Bishops took the place of the voice and guidance of the Holy Spirit.  For at least a thousand years, the Scriptures were denied to the common people and only those educated in Latin and Greek were able to read them.  So, the church prescribed for the people what they should believe in the way of doctrine and how they should worship.  The Holy Spirit was shut out in practice, although the pretence of being guided by the Spirit continued.  But it was in the form of "may the Holy Spirit bless our programme" which was made up of rituals and ceremonies.

Any attempts by different groups to bring back a merger between their group and the Holy Spirit were resisted by the established church and brutally put down.  Most of the information we have about those groups come from those who were enemies of it, so their comments about them were skewed to give the impression that the groups were heretical, when often they were closer to the Scripture than the established church itself. 

I don't think we have been able to achieve a full merger of the Holy Spirit and the church even to this day.  In most churches the planning of worship and preaching programmes is done by man, leaving no room for the Holy Spirit to have any input.  The prayer is usually, "Bless our programme, Lord, and may the Holy Spirit work with us."   In reality, when the Holy Spirit does move and attempts to manifest the gifts in a church, the attempt is stoutly resisted and the Spirit is quenched by the insistent that "the programme must be followed without deviation".

Oh yes, we can quote the Bible until the cows come home about what should happen, but in practice, man is still in total control in most if not all our neighborhood churches.  Even most Pentecostal and Charismatic churches are the same way.  There are many Pentecostal churches that no longer have any of the spiritual gifts operating in them, and their services are no different to any Evangelical church that never claimed to be manifesting the supernatural gifts of the Spirit.

So, we know in theory how we should be walking in the Spirit, but are we actually doing it in practice?

[Riverwalker]

1 minute ago, Paul James said:

The problem is that after the 4th Century AD, the church separated itself from the Holy Spirit and became a man-dominated, man-programmed religious entity where the authority of the Bishops took the place of the voice and guidance of the Holy Spirit.  For at least a thousand years, the Scriptures were denied to the common people and only those educated in Latin and Greek were able to read them.  So, the church prescribed for the people what they should believe in the way of doctrine and how they should worship.  The Holy Spirit was shut out in practice, although the pretence of being guided by the Spirit continued.  But it was in the form of "may the Holy Spirit bless our programme" which was made up of rituals and ceremonies.

Any attempts by different groups to bring back a merger between their group and the Holy Spirit were resisted by the established church and brutally put down.  Most of the information we have about those groups come from those who were enemies of it, so their comments about them were skewed to give the impression that the groups were heretical, when often they were closer to the Scripture than the established church itself. 

I don't think we have been able to achieve a full merger of the Holy Spirit and the church even to this day.  In most churches the planning of worship and preaching programmes is done by man, leaving no room for the Holy Spirit to have any input.  The prayer is usually, "Bless our programme, Lord, and may the Holy Spirit work with us."   In reality, when the Holy Spirit does move and attempts to manifest the gifts in a church, the attempt is stoutly resisted and the Spirit is quenched by the insistent that "the programme must be followed without deviation".

Oh yes, we can quote the Bible until the cows come home about what should happen, but in practice, man is still in total control in most if not all our neighborhood churches.  Even most Pentecostal and Charismatic churches are the same way.  There are many Pentecostal churches that no longer have any of the spiritual gifts operating in them, and their services are no different to any Evangelical church that never claimed to be manifesting the supernatural gifts of the Spirit.

So, we know in theory how we should be walking in the Spirit, but are we actually doing it in practice?

To be honest with you I have very little interest in what man made organizations called "The Church" do or say.

There is one church, and its head is Christ and its manual is the bible. 

Each Christian is walking their own walk.  One day I had the temerity  to ask God why some people just are not as committed to the things of God as I am. His reply was a spiritual slap on the back of the head and stern correction that these were HIS people and He loves every one of them and He will take them as He can get them....and I am to take my hands off of them.

 

[Paul James]

6 minutes ago, Josheb said:

My concern is that the discussion turns into a moratorium on tongues and not the larger, more general condition of walking in the Spirit which more often then not has nothing to do with tongues. A person can walk in the Spirit sans tongues and that lack is the normal state of affairs when walking in the Spirit. Neither tongues nor Pentecostalism defines walking in the Spirit. SwordMaster is educated with many years in the Church but there are some reading these posts who may not be as knowledgeable or practiced in the scripture or faith and easily get an incorrect view of walking in the Spirit if it is construed to be synonymous with tongues or 20th century Pentecostalism.

I'm not going to discuss the nature and veracity of tongues with you in this op. 

I am going to do my past to make sure a conflation between walking in the Spirit and tongues is avoided.

The problem as I see it is that I don't see a lot of evidence that walking in the Spirit is a feature in most Christian church members.

Paul told the Corinthians, "I did not come to you with the enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and power".   So, it seems that a true walk in the Spirit is a little more than just saying, "I walk in the Spirit", but is evidenced by demonstration and power.

Jesus said it when He said, "“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed" (Luke 4:18).  Also it says in Acts 10:38: "how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him."

Of all people, Jesus walked in the Spirit, and that is how He demonstrated it.  Paul knew that and because he followed Christ, his demonstration of the Spirit was the same.

Now, how many people do you know in your fellowship who walk in the Spirit like that as a true representative of Jesus?

[Riverwalker]

4 minutes ago, Josheb said:

How about those days when you demand He come down right then and there and explain Himself? 

And then when you calm down you realize how thankful you are He didn't? 

 

[Paul James]

5 minutes ago, Riverwalker said:

To be honest with you I have very little interest in what man made organizations called "The Church" do or say.

There is one church, and its head is Christ and its manual is the bible. 

Each Christian is walking their own walk.  One day I had the temerity  to ask God why some people just are not as committed to the things of God as I am. His reply was a spiritual slap on the back of the head and stern correction that these were HIS people and He loves every one of them and He will take them as He can get them....and I am to take my hands off of them.

 

That's what Jesus said to Peter when he asked the Lord about what was going to happen to John:  "What is that to you?  Follow me!"

But it is what I said in my recent post:  If one is going to say they are walking in the Spirit, then they must be able to show demonstration of it in the same way that Jesus and Paul demonstration what a walk in the Spirit actually is.  Otherwise the assertion is just chin music with nothing to back it up, and the so called "walk in the Spirit" is just a pretense.

[Riverwalker]

1 minute ago, Paul James said:

That's what Jesus said to Peter when he asked the Lord about what was going to happen to John:  "What is that to you?  Follow me!"

But it is what I said in my recent post:  If one is going to say they are walking in the Spirit, then they must be able to show demonstration of it in the same way that Jesus and Paul demonstration what a walk in the Spirit actually is.  Otherwise the assertion is just chin music with nothing to back it up, and the so called "walk in the Spirit" is just a pretense.

But who do we have to prove it too?

[Paul James]

4 minutes ago, Riverwalker said:

But who do we have to prove it too?

Anyone to whom we make the assertion that we are walking in the Spirit.  If we make the assertion, then the people who hear it have the right to say, "If you are walking in the Spirit, prove it by demonstration!"

For that reason, because none of us are perfect in our walk with the Lord, it is better not to be a wide-mouth frog about it.  :-)

[popsthebuilder]

Wouldn't walking in the Spirit be basically turning from selfish worldly desires and doing for self, and turning towards the things one knows are good and help the sake of another? I would think taking on all tasks with sincere prayer for guidance would be a big part of walking in the Spirit. One would likely have to be able to examine ones own motives and compare them to the teachings of the Christ, and the law of the Spirit written in the hearts and on the minds of the believer. I think very many may have trouble staying focused on the things of the Lord (myself included at times), and may have trouble identifying the motives for their own actions, but i also think those things would be needed in order to walk according to the things of the Spirit.

[popsthebuilder]

3 hours ago, SwordMaster said:

 

Yes, indeed these things are true...but we have gotten off track. How does Scripture tell us to walk in the Spirit?

.

.

 

Deny self

Give

Be compassionate

Be sincere

Serve others

Would not walking in the Spirit be known according to ones doings? What is akin to the fruit of the Spirit?

Love (Greek: agape, Latin: caritas)

Joy (Greek: chara, Latin: gaudium)

Peace (Greek: eirene, Latin: pax)

Patience (Greek: makrothumia, Latin: longanimitas)

Kindness (Greek: chrestotes, Latin: benignitas)

Goodness (Greek: agathosune, Latin: bonitas)

Faithfulness (Greek: pistis, Latin: fides)

Gentleness (Greek: prautes, Latin: modestia)

Self-control (Greek: enkrateia, Latin: continentia)