God did not teach us these things

[Hopefully]

“Enoch was carried away from this earth, so he never died. The Scriptures tell us that before he was carried off, he was a man who pleased God. Later, no one knew where he was, because God had taken Enoch to be with him. This all happened because he had faith.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:5‬ ‭

[Justin Adams]

7 minutes ago, Kelly2363 said:

 

And the book of Enoch is a gateway into the occult and to sorcery. As are the Scriptures (though not by intention) - the difference between the two is settled right in that passage from Exodus 13 which I cited. Finally, if you grasp the awful implication of that meaning you may also then understand why the Apostle Paul cites sorcery as a fruit of the flesh in Galatians 5:20. If sorcery or witchcraft is a fruit of the flesh then in what way would it benefit Satan to give us a book that tells us that Armers taught the solution of sorcery? 

The Lords' answer to the flesh was the Law of God and the covering of the mind so that His word would be in their mouths (the priests) and the same Lord gave us the Cross so that the old man would be put away through death and a new man raised up into newness of life. The book of Enoch has no such restraints. It is a gateway book into the occult and to sorcery. Shalom.

The seminaries and 'preacher-speak' have been broadcasting this idea forever.

Providentially the Qumran discoveries proved most of this incorrect. The second temple literature and the Tanakh (not the Masoretic doctored text) bridged the gap from old to new. One will find over 300 direct quotes or allegories to Enoch in the NT. Check out the Targums and see. Or, if one listens to just the pulpit, one will do little except spread rumours.

[Kelly2363]

7 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

The seminaries and 'preacher-speak' have been broadcasting this idea forever.

Providentially the Qumran discoveries proved most of this incorrect. The second temple literature and the Tanakh (not the Masoretic doctored text) bridged the gap from old to new. One will find over 300 direct quotes or allegories to Enoch in the NT. Check out the Targums and see. Or, if one listens to just the pulpit, one will do little except spread rumours.

 

You read Hebrew so go and read 1 Samuel 28 and Exodus 13 and if you can read Greek also then read Galatians 5.

Then come back and explain to me what the occult is and what the natural mind is. I am not interested in seminaries or preacher -speak'. 

Edited September 3, 2021 by Kelly2363

[Starise]

37 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

The seminaries and 'preacher-speak' have been broadcasting this idea forever.

Providentially the Qumran discoveries proved most of this incorrect. The second temple literature and the Tanakh (not the Masoretic doctored text) bridged the gap from old to new. One will find over 300 direct quotes or allegories to Enoch in the NT. Check out the Targums and see. Or, if one listens to just the pulpit, one will do little except spread rumours.

I think Enoch 1 ( not Enoch 2) should have been a part of the original canon but the so called church fathers rejected it. Probably because it was seen as too extreme. This was not a decision made through the spirit. This as a group of men who just decided to take it out.

Yes Enoch is mentioned numerous times in the rest of the Bible. 

One only gets into the occult if they choose to follow and worship these entities. Knowledge of them is no sin.

 

[Kelly2363]

12 minutes ago, Starise said:

One only gets into the occult if they choose to follow and worship these entities. Knowledge of them is no sin.

This is rather like saying that a person only gets into Satanism by choosing to follow Satan. That has an element of truth in it because you cannot be a Satanist unless you first believe in God. Whereas, the occult is open to everyone regardless of their beliefs because it speaks of the mind and the powers that the mind possesses fuelled by the flesh. 

Edited September 3, 2021 by Kelly2363

[Starise]

7 hours ago, Kelly2363 said:

This is rather like saying that a person only gets into Satanism by choosing to follow Satan. That has an element of truth in it because you cannot be a Satanist unless you first believe in God. Whereas, the occult is open to everyone regardless of their beliefs because it speaks of the mind and the powers that the mind possesses fuelled by the flesh. 

Well, I believe even the representations some have of  the occult are misleading. Different people seem to have different views on it. I see it all as having to do with our enemy so I let it alone other than to become informed about it, ways to identify it in people or organizations at work today in our world often in so called religious institutions, smaller splinter groups and larger entities clearly identifying themselves as occult in nature by what they believe and teach.

The occult is open to everyone in the same way a venus fly trap is open to flys.

To learn about the occult does not mean we need to experience anything about it personally. To have too much interest in it is probably unhealthy as well.

Overt Satanists might believe in what they think is our God but they would be sorely mistaken if they believe the line commonly thrown at them in these groups from other satanic teachers. Satan is a liar and the father of it. This is no small accusation. This means He ORIGINATED the practice. Why would he feel the need to tell his followers the truth?

Edited September 4, 2021 by Starise

[Kelly2363]

5 hours ago, Starise said:

The occult is open to everyone in the same way a venus fly trap is open to flys.

To learn about the occult does not mean we need to experience anything about it personally. To have too much interest in it is probably unhealthy as well.

Overt Satanists might believe in what they think is our God but they would be sorely mistaken if they believe the line commonly thrown at them in these groups from other satanic teachers. Satan is a liar and the father of it. This is no small accusation. This means He ORIGINATED the practice. Why would he feel the need to tell his followers the truth?

 

You know not what the occult is. All men have its meaning in their flesh - its power - its fuel - And its ambition. We are the fly trap in your analogy. Why do we always look to others and refuse to see our own flesh? As to Satan - he doesn't teach men about God - he utterly depends on men teaching men about God. We do that and then we stumble our children and others right into the open arms of an enemy who thanks us for our children and thence makes of some of them his best men. I am astonished that we still hold to childish accounts about what Satanism is. Not chiefly religious institutions - but an effect coming out of the very church.

We cannot serve Satan directly unless we have first believed that God exists. We cannot oppose God unless we first believe that God is. Why else do we believe that judgement begins in the household of God?

Edited September 4, 2021 by Kelly2363
Added last paragraph.

[Justin Adams]

11 hours ago, Kelly2363 said:

This is rather like saying that a person only gets into Satanism by choosing to follow Satan. That has an element of truth in it because you cannot be a Satanist unless you first believe in God. Whereas, the occult is open to everyone regardless of their beliefs because it speaks of the mind and the powers that the mind possesses fuelled by the flesh. 

Non sequitur. Logic apparently fails here. 

[Starise]

6 hours ago, Kelly2363 said:

 

You know not what the occult is. All men have its meaning in their flesh - its power - its fuel - And its ambition. We are the fly trap in your analogy. Why do we always look to others and refuse to see our own flesh? As to Satan - he doesn't teach men about God - he utterly depends on men teaching men about God. We do that and then we stumble our children and others right into the open arms of an enemy who thanks us for our children and thence makes of some of them his best men. I am astonished that we still hold to childish accounts about what Satanism is. Not chiefly religious institutions - but an effect coming out of the very church.

We cannot serve Satan directly unless we have first believed that God exists. We cannot oppose God unless we first believe that God is. Why else do we believe that judgement begins in the household of God?

To tell a man he doesn't know what something is, a man you know absolutely nothing about requires concrete evidence. All you've done here is speak in an abstract way about this, almost talking in circles with no real point to the conversation. To be fair Satanism and the occult can be two different things since occult organizations don't often directly reference Satan even though he and his fallen angels are are the  root of all of it.

[Kelly2363]

24 minutes ago, Starise said:

To tell a man he doesn't know what something is, a man you know absolutely nothing about requires concrete evidence. All you've done here is speak in an abstract way about this, almost talking in circles with no real point to the conversation. To be fair Satanism and the occult can be two different things since occult organizations don't often directly reference Satan even though he and his fallen angels are are the  root of all of it.

 

To be clear then - I have stated precisely what the occult is and that Satanism is a separate thing. I have not talked in circles and so I don't receive the rebuke. You have absolutely no comprehension what the occult is and neither the central meaning of Satanism. But at least your comments afford another to take joy - and in that we are both rid of a needless argument. The book of Enoch is a blasphemous and occult gateway and should be thrown into the fire. 

Edited September 4, 2021 by Kelly2363