Starise

God uses bad to bring the other bad along with it. Satan has a purpose. In addition to bad being often turned for good purposes. The way I see this things have to run their course now. Satan rebelled and pulled a 3rd of the angels away. Satan aided in ruining man the same way he ruined himself, which I believe he thought it to be a death hit on men. He did not anticipate the salvation of men. This must really grate on him since none of the others were offered salvation. Their job was to remain loyal. Now the goal is to entice men further away from God so they will never accept him. One way he does this is through character attacks on God questioning his validity , and discrediting the Bible in twisting it. If Christianity can be seen as passé, he can give men what the flesh has always wanted. A religion that lets them indulge the flesh. Anyone who has a mind to rebel or run counter to God will find lots of company. That’s why there will be millions in hell. This is the catalyst Satan uses, and why I think his presence on earth is used to help purge those people in the end.

I was thinking of the modern day equivalent to idols in the western world. That would probably be “things” like houses and cars and vacations. Anything that soothes the self or that the self likes which is put before God. None of it will ever deeply satisfy in the way a relationship with God satisfies. Everyone living for the now with no thoughts to eternity, when we should be using the now to prepare for the later. Of course they tell us there is no later and so they all live accordingly. A by product of infected thinking that seems good. No harm in enjoying those things in the right balance.

I could dramatize this, and yes hearing God is always special for me, but not so dramatic as it’s a fairly common occurrence as I suspect it is with many or most believers. For instance, I might awake and think to myself, should I attend church today? This would really be my lazy flesh trying to question what I already know the answer to deep down. Sometimes I think we do that. We ask God questions we already knew the answers to. What might be more confusing is which church? And we might be seeking the Lord on that one. Waiting on His leading. A friend of mine who held home church for several years relocated and jokingly told me he didn’t want to go to ‘church’. I knew what he meant by that. His church had comfortably been at his home and now he had to go to a church building. Legalism would say it should be in a church building. Obviously not the voice of God. I don’t believe God speaks through people who make up rules and then tell us what we ‘should’ do. I once had a pastor scold me for attending another church with my girlfriend( pre marriage days). In his thinking it was wrong not to attend the church I was a member of, even if my girlfriend was there. This is where people will try to pass legalism off as the voice of God. Scripture can be misrepresented under the guise of love when really what it is, is manipulation. The leading of the Lord is peaceful, not pushy. If God really is leading, and we run from it, We don’t get very far before the realization eventually comes. Which brings up another issue. Do we always want to hear the voice of God? John 10”my sheep hear my voice”. Sometimes as believers I think we can become full of hearing, or we don’t want to know. Why would that be? Possibly we dread the outcome we think is in store. Jonah would be a good example of this. Don’t you think Samson didn’t hear that small voice, “she is bad for you”?

I remembered you had that background as a youth up close. Much has probably changed since. These days are sad indeed. I am all for Paul’s’ decently and in order’ which never precluded the ‘gifts’. Lately I have been around many that seem to be exhibiting these gifts. Some of my closest friends. Some of those things are beginning to happen in me. It feels good to be experiencing the Bible instead of only studying it.

Oh now we’ve done it. Episcopalians will be speaking in tongues. Which wouldn’t be a bad thing.😙

Good stuff. As an aside, a potential translational misunderstanding of the term ‘gift’ can be more accurately called ‘ spiritual enablement’. We are to seek spiritual enablements referred to as gifts in English translations. This is what the church in many areas of the world seems to be lacking. Ironically it is our empowerment by the Spirit for His work.

Hello Michael, I will add the book to my list. Read so far: - Developing your Prophetic Gifting, Graham Cook - The Gift Of Prophecy, Jack Deere Reading now - You All May Prophesy, Steve Thompson I liked those first two books because they were from the vantage points of men who had the ‘gift’. That word ‘gift’ is not recommended by a few because it isn’t something we possess according to them the person is giving something they were given. IOW not inherent to the person. Not yet sure how I feel about that as even the Apostle Paul called them gifts. The gift of hearing the Lord in those unique ways. Churches ,individuals and kings have used prophets. Training for it almost doesn’t seem to exist in many parts of the world.Western religious thought has tended to discourage it, and sometimes because of a bad experience. The Bible never says false prophets are powerless, but I think we can use the word and discernment to weed them out. Fallibility in the gift: - Misinterpretation of a revelation leading to a bad answer. - Sin in a prophet’s life can lead to demonic and personal distortions.Pride, immorality etc. - Used as manipulation. I have had things revealed I can’t yet explain. Just little snippets of things that I am convinced mean something.These have been mind pictures. The more mature prophets may know something and never feel led to reveal it. I was in a meeting the other week and had some ‘impressions’ I can’t confirm. Even if I could it wasn’t the sort of impression to share publicly. Praying about what to do with it. In reiterating your references, prophecy should be supervised and discretion/ discernment is important. Congregations are led by pastors and oversight. No room for loose cannons.

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I had something to share God had showed me to a man in my church. It was an image with a meaning. Then later in the service we had a person there with prophetic words for my church. The exact same thing was relayed, and I mean exact. Only one other person was aware of what I had said. They turned around and looked at me in church. Only myself, the man and another friend were aware of it since I didn’t make it public. I am “small fry” at the prophetic. It does seem to be occurring.

Hmmmm. Let me try my phone.😳🙄👋

Thanks guys. May God always get all glory.

I already knew you were attending a Baptist church and I harbor no ill will towards them. Many have been saved in those churches. Baptists are up close and personal to me since I was raiseed in a Baptist church from birth and attended one even afterwards when I left home. Yet in later years I never agreed with some of their theology. I also realize that often finding a good church can be difficult. Even the baptist moniker has been corrupted on several fronts by apostacy, which I guess means, judge no book by it's cover. One could do far worse than a good methodist, baptist or presbyterian church. I believed most of what was taught. The people in those churches are often dedicated and good servants of Christ, sometimes caught in a less than stellar theological system. No two are the same. Even churches under the same denominational umbrella. Neither am I saying my denomination is by any means perfect or has arrived, but it aligns most closely with my beliefs. I would like to think that Christians do not just look at what the church they attend teaches and believe all of it, but sadly I think this is the case many times. The pastor said it, so it must be right. The gifts are either in effect or they are not irregardless of any church. The degree to which we quench/discourage them is the degree they are usually seen. Churches that encourage the gifts will need to take a risk in allowing them, but much of this can be mitigated by checks and balances.Churches that tend to discourage the gifts because maybe they don't think they ever happen will reap what they sow. Noone who has such gifts will be likely to attend said churches, or if they do, they will not feel free in them. I have Presbyterian and Baptist friends, but I attend a Vineyard church that is part of the Vineyard denomination. -They believe in tongues, healing and prophecy as relevant today, however they don't overly emphasize them like some of the more charismatic churches sometimes seem to do. There is a way tongues are allowed and they follow that way.Same with prophecy and the others. Healing is a real thing and I know people who have absolutely been healed. Tongues are not a prerequisite to recieving the spirit. There is often some confusion about the Holy Spirit. I basically believe the same as the Baptists on the Holy Spirit. We get the Spirit when we are saved, however we can have the Spirit come over us to be used for special purposes. Some will say that's a filling of the Spirit. So far as I know Baptists completely omit prophecy. In all the years I was in those churches I never seen anything to indicate it was encouraged.

One I recently tracked. I wrote it a few weeks ago, but finally had the time to record it. Me and a guitar. I added a small second to the chorus.

Yes, can't you tell? :) When I read this verse I think about busy freeways and busy air traffic. People are criss crossing the globe on an unprecidented scale. And it goes without really saying how much knowledge continues to increase. It's incredible. AI helped me fill out my taxes this year.My car drives itself. It really does, although somewhat like a grandma sometimes. I could go on and on. We see the frution of that verse now. Does it temp a few to begin tpo see things that aren't there 'yet'? I think in many cases it does. I see this knowledge increase as not having completely blossomed yet. Yes we see it, but it's still moving forward, so the question is where in the 'moving forward' are we? I don't think anyone knows exactly. You would be correct that for that time those prophets have done their work and are finished with it. We have entered into a new prophetic era now IMO. After Christ anyone can be led with a word from God. Forth telling and fore telling. These words MUST ALWAYS line up with scripture and have confirmation. Paul had the gift of tongues. This was after the OT obviously. A good friend of mine has that gift. I would call it a 'prayer language' because I have only ever heard him murmer it under his breath in prayer. He has had it since he was 16.Many who have that particular gift will not disclose they have it and you won't know they have it unless the Lord leads them to use it in public under the right conditions. Also we have people being healed in my denomination. Confirmed healed. All of those gifts are still with the church, but most denominations squelch them. Still others abuse their use. If they were incorporated the way they were intended to be, we would have far less atheists around. They all want proof. Guess what? The gifts are that proof. Unfortunately some name it and claim it preacher on TV ruins the concept. Also the devil loves to try and copy it. Shut all the gifts out of our churches and guess what? It's not going to prosper spiritually. Well, when you can show me where this all stopped I'll be in agreement. The verses used to support the view are not strong enough to make the case. I already showed those verses about those gifts stopping were for when the Lord returns or when we will "know as we are known" :) The wider definition of prophecy does not omit the other functions of it :) I see prophecy no different.

I wish I had the video link to the conference. I know they recorded it. I think it would give a more complete reference. I'll see if I can find it. There is a level of risk in incorporating prophecy into any church. For one thing it can often uncover the rotten eggs, or those things which are keeping a church from growing, which sometimes point to things within leadership. These words would be given privately to the leadership team apparently. The fruit of the Spirit in that case would be to give these words in love. In any church incorporating this, there should be strict checks and balances. In other words accountability. As in anything that happens within the church. I wish I could say it hasn't been abused. Like the pastor gone rogue, this can happen in prophetic ministry as well, and some of these guys either need to be let go or taken aside. It should never be a peacock ministry with stars. We are all servants. It happens unfortunately.

I see this as a yes and no kind of thing. In other words, yes this is true, but other aspects of it are true as well. Sometimes the person being given a word is a complete stranger to the person giving the word, so the prophet could not have been interceeding for them until that very moment maybe. They may ask, " Lord, would you have for this person?" which is interceeding, but not in the way some may see it. 1 Timothy 2:1 says to pray for all men. How many of us realistically do that? We can pray collectively sure. We could spend 24/7 praying and never pray for everyone. There is a deeper context here.

I have seen this with prayer and in music. The churches I played in and a few I was responsible for the music in, were all structured. I never knew anything different. "God is not the author of confusion", so I would try to keep everything on the rails but always felt something was missing. Toward the end of that last stint, I would sometimes do things off the rails. Sometimes admittedly it was just me forgetting to repeat a chorus or something. Other times it was a leading to do something different. Surprisingly I never got any flak for it from anyone. I would compare it to the way some pastors say they feel led away from a topic to something else in their messages. Some churches are not structured in worship in the way we look at it at all. I have recently been exposed to some of this and even heard a musician in the Spirit edifying as a part of their worship. No strict script at all. This kind of worship if done in the right spirit and intent, is amazing to be a part of, and frankly I would never want to return to that more structured worship ever again. Everyone still knows and follows the choruses. Something magical happens when we let go and let the Spirit move.Sometimes the Spirit says to follow the script. Other times He doesn't. I am still processing some of this. I attended a meeting that apparently is common in many churches where a preacher is preaching and gives prophecy for the future of a church or the community, then individual public prophecy by looking at someone and asking them to stand. He then gives them a word. Sometimes he approaches them and hides the mic because the Lord apparently has given him something personal about a person. These words are often far more than generalities about the person and what has been happening with them and what is going to happen with them. In the conference they put us into groups taking turns with a person in the middle of a circle. The others are to give a word they see about you. Keep in mind we are all strangers, so no one knows anyone else. I was in the middle of the circle at one point and they said things about me I won't repeat here about me. They were positive things. Many of the things they said reenforced what I knew about myself and some struggles. Sometimes they interpreted the things they seen differently that I did. This would be the fledgling human element trying to make sense of it. The two things I seen when I asked God about a person I still have no explanation for, so I let it be. I seen a woman in the circle and I seen dancing slippers and what looked to me like a dancing outfit, so I said I seen a dancer. It wasn't technically a dancer, but the clothing I seen. It was pink clothing like a lace, but I gathered it was dancing because I seen the shoes like ballet shoes. Did I misinterpret it? Possible I did. On the spiritual level, her soul wanted to dance but felt maybe restricted. If this had not been an exercise, I would have kept that to myself. I will share one of the things they said about me. They said I was well equipped with all the 'tools' and that I was well prepared.I took that to mean musically because I have an overabundance of those tools and I often prepare to use them. Another said he seen a cowboy like I was on a horse with a lasso ready to do business whatever that means. I have no association with cowboys lol. There were other words for me.It's edifying and interesting to say the least.

Hello Dennis, Thank you for those concise references on prophecy.I do believe it is supposed to edify and help to build up the body of Christ. Scripture clearly supports this premise. Let me quote the main two references you used here to support the argument that prophecy is no longer functioning From my understanding some of the things about prophecy have changed since OT days, but prophecy remains. 1 Cor. 13:8-9 8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. We see three things listed in verse 8 -words of knowledge -prophecies -tongues What we see in verses 8-12 is that these things will eventually discontinue. When they cease? When we know in full. Let me read further verses for a fuller picture of what this means. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. These further verses confirm they will cease when we know as we are known. When is that? After the Lord returns. The full canon of scripture does not let us know as we are known. Also notice verse 9- For we know in part and we prophesy in part. This means that modern prophecy, even when done strictly according to the ways it should be done often only reveals a part of a thing, and may not reveal everything about it, so wisdom and discernment are needed to apply the correct intentions. This will always need to be confirmed by scripture and by other things. For instance, you might get a word of prophecy that you will lead men, but no idea as to where or when. Sometimes the Lord allows spot on prophecy. John Wimber, who had the gift, told the story of boarding a jet and while boarding he seen a man with a name on his head. He talked to the man and asked him if he knew of the name. It was a woman he had been committing adultery with. He turned white as a sheet when John went on to describe the very motel and what the clerk was wearing, what she looked like and the alias name they used at the motel. The man repented and was saved as a result. 2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves. Yes certainly there are false prophets. We see them on television a lot. All of the gifts should be checked and the men should all be above reproach. What I see happening is the church throws the baby out with the bath water here. The devil copies everything the Lord does and tries to make it look legit. Many churches make the assumtion it's all of the devil and will have nothing to do with any of it. The gifts were never intended to be a circus show. They are a functional part of the body of Christ used to edify when used in balance with the word and in the right ways. The modern church is many times quenching the very Spirit sent to help it.

Hi Marilyn, Yes I am a fledgling at the gift and admit it. I would maybe have been further along had the churches I attended knew about it. Over here in the US, apparently many churches don't even recognize it. I am almost finished with Graham Cook's book called " Developing Your Prophetic Gifting". Maybe you are familiar with him? He was a prophet from England who eventually helped to foster the gifting in churches here in the US. It isn't intended to be a front and center gift as many might imagine it, but associtaed with the other gifts as you say. Sometimes it's very utilitarian and not out in front. My problem has been clearing my inner closet of any junk that may hinder the Spirit. It was described to me that awhile back I was like a bottle with a small neck, but the Lord is opening me up wider to recieve more. I didn't realize my ears were dull and that I needed to listen spiritually more. This was a personal prophecy to me by several prophets, or persons with the gift. For the time being I keep most of my things to myself, and it isn't as if I get them all the time, but sometimes I see things I'm not quite sure what to do with them. The problem I am having with this is I might see things I would prefer not to know about myself and others. So far I haven't. It can be difficult to decipher between human intuition and reading someone's mail. And I try to avoid anything negative about a person in public, I feel things about people which I think is more intuitive. I am led to scriptures sometimes when I see things He gives me to see. Like seeing the burning rags. I think that was for me. My righteousness are as filthy rags. I certainly don't want to go too fast on this. I'm taking my time.

Gideon's international. I would look them up.

This is a song by We The Kingdom called Holy Water. You can find the full instrumental version on YouTube. I played this and sang on my guitar .

Interesting passage that reflects a few other passages. In Revelation the Lord sends a scorching heat on men. It this passage referring to it or something else? Who? The whole earth Why? They transgressed the statutes in addition to the everlasting covenant. What is the everlasting covenant? One of the big theological questions is, are we as believers included in the group? I would say no unless some of us also transgressed. Those who have wine as a centerpiece to their lives will be sorely disappointed.

Thanks for this. I ordered several books on the subject, not that books are always a sure way to know more on the subject all depending on the author. In addition I attended a prophecy conference. Neither does that make me an expert. Since this hasn’t been my background it was all interesting. In the denomination I came from prophecy was something that didn’t happen any more. The word was said to mean give the word, as in preaching. Ffwd a number of years and God put me in a place to learn more about it. One thing I didn’t know is that anyone can prophesy if God leads in that direction. Prophecy was intended to be encouraging and beneficial to the recipient. Generally those words come to a specific individual but can also come to a larger body. The words are checked against the Bible and others. For this reason these things in my area are often given in public. I want to develop this, but really the “development “ comes through a person not from a person. No matter how intuitive a person is none of that matters. Some get pictures, some get it in other ways. I seem to be seeing pictures when I ask the Lord about a person. In one case I had no idea what the pictures mean, therefore I withheld my words. In another case I looked at a man recently saved who had been in much trouble. God showed me a clean blank sign which I took to mean the man was clean in God’s eyes. In the other one I seen a pair of eyes and a blue pastel wall. I have no idea what that was so I’m still praying and seeking. Sunday when the leader asked for anything we might get, I seen a burning rag which I took to mean all our righteousness is as filthy rags which are then burned up apart from Jesus.

Maybe even more misunderstood than tongues generally speaking amongst mainline denominations. Who would care to discuss this?

Yes well done.