Don19 Posted March 15, 2022 Group: Senior Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 578 Content Per Day: 0.39 Reputation: 255 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/28/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted March 15, 2022 I think the idea that God never answers the prayers of an unbeliever is unsupported biblically. Mark 5:12-13 would be an example of Jesus granting the requests of devils. 12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them. 13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don19 Posted March 15, 2022 Group: Senior Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 578 Content Per Day: 0.39 Reputation: 255 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/28/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted March 15, 2022 On 12/22/2021 at 8:42 AM, Josheb said: First, every example provided in the op is not an example of an atheist. NONE of the examples is an example of an actual unbeliever, of someone who has NO belief in God. This is very, very important and a fact that everyone should understand when reading the Bible. There are very few atheists in the Bible! In ancient times nearly everyone believed in some god, even if it wasn't the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the Creator God. There is a huge difference between someone who believes in a god or God not having faith or trust in the god/God in whom they believe and someone who simply does not believe any god or God exists. Interestingly, the Bible does mention Paul preaching to Epicureans (Acts 17:18). I would definitely consider Epicurus to be an atheist. In fact, I'd go even further and say that a belief in "gods" without a single God who is the omnipotent Creator is tantamount to atheism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopefully Posted March 15, 2022 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 52 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 1,323 Content Per Day: 1.06 Reputation: 1,465 Days Won: 5 Joined: 12/07/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted March 15, 2022 “We all know that God does not listen to sinners, but he will listen to anyone who worships and obeys him.” John 9:31 Christ has forgiven the sins of believers. An unbeliever has not had their sins forgiven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don19 Posted March 16, 2022 Group: Senior Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 578 Content Per Day: 0.39 Reputation: 255 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/28/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted March 16, 2022 10 hours ago, Josheb said: I'm not sure I agree. Epicurus and those who followed his views didn't consider the gods germane. In this they share common ground with Buddha. Believe in God if you like. Don't believe in God if you like. Not really relevant to the substance of my teaching. Early Christians considered him atheist but I'm not sure that's a fair evaluation given Epicurus' view the gods were so far removed from human existence they were irrelevant. Can't deny their relevance if they don't exist. You are correct; Paul did engage them. My point was that very little of the Bible is specifically about the atheist. It is overwhelmingly about people who did in some way, shape, or form believe some god or gods existed. As such, even if the gods turn out to be non-existent, those people do not qualify as atheists. This op is about the "unbeliever" and prayer. Very few unbelievers in the Bible. Same problem often exists in discussions/debates on soteriology. Very few atheists in the Bible so there are very real limits applying scripture about theists to atheists, yet folks make that mistake recurringly. Ends up being an argument of false equivalence. For the record: When Paul engaged the pagans, their philosophers and philosophies (he quoted Epimenides to Titus ) he did so using their views for the sake of the gospel. He was, on these occasions, all things to all people - without ever compromising Christ (or Christ's philosophy ). All were taken captive and submitted to Christ. I believe this was part of the basis for Paul's saying a person must first believe a god exists to pray to said God. Atheists don't pray to a God they don't believe exists. At least not if they have any integrity with their claimed beliefs . . Epicurus seemed like a clear example of an atheist (for all intents and purposes) to me. But I'd actually go even further than that and argue that polytheism, although considered a "theism," has more in common with atheism than belief in God's existence. We know that God is the omnipotent First Cause of all things. If someone denies that First Cause, that person is an atheist, regardless of any belief in other "gods" or other supernatural things. One can believe in supernatural things and still be an atheist. It begs the question of where those things came from, but atheists already have that problem, whether they are strict materialists or not. Of course, we also know God's eternal power and Godhead are made known to all men (Rom 1:20) - so, really, atheists both now and in Bible times are those who suppress this truth. Though the pagans called Him the "unknown god," Paul makes it clear that He is actually known to them. You are correct that very little of the Bible is specifically about atheists, but I do believe Acts 17 is one of the exceptions to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobie_ Posted March 16, 2022 Group: Seventh Day Adventist Followers: 6 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,786 Content Per Day: 0.33 Reputation: 717 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/24/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted March 16, 2022 16 hours ago, Don19 said: I think the idea that God never answers the prayers of an unbeliever is unsupported biblically. Mark 5:12-13 would be an example of Jesus granting the requests of devils. 12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them. 13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea. But they do believe....and yet tremble, as they know their ultimate end.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobie_ Posted March 16, 2022 Group: Seventh Day Adventist Followers: 6 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,786 Content Per Day: 0.33 Reputation: 717 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/24/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted March 16, 2022 On 2/15/2022 at 12:53 PM, missmuffet said: Yes, only God knows the heart but we can observe the actions of a person and can tell if they are with God by the fruit they produce. Their character, integrity, values and morals. Crystal Cathedral and PTL come to mind, seemed like a lot of fruit, many were fooled.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don19 Posted March 16, 2022 Group: Senior Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 578 Content Per Day: 0.39 Reputation: 255 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/28/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted March 16, 2022 59 minutes ago, Hobie_ said: But they do believe....and yet tremble, as they know their ultimate end.... I meant an unbeliever with respect to the faith, not God's existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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