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Hobie_

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  1. The Bible has it all there for our understanding, but we must study and ask Gods help to understand to fully grasp the nature of Christ. Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder. and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." How can we understand this, the mystery of the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, come in the flesh, and how a mere child, born like other children, could also be "The everlasting Father." 1 Corinthians 12:3 "Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." The pre-existence of Christ or personal existence of Christ before his conception is shown in the Bible, but the Holy Ghost has to guide us. For some reason, this concept of Christ pre-incarnate or the pre-existence of Christ is very controversial, as people somewhat get confused with the "Title" which refers to Jesus or how He is shown such as the "First and the Last", the "Alpha and Omega" the "Holy One", the "Angel of the Lord". Now we must be clear, Jesus is NOT a created Angel. He is fully Man, fully God, the Messiah, the Christ, and Lord and Saviour. Jesus is Eternal. Jesus was never created. Jesus is Eternal as the Father and Holy Spirit are Eternal. Jesus has always been and always will be and scripture shows existed before He became the earthly child of Mary. Let us begin with the birth of Christ and we see in Matthew one of the titles, 'God with us'. Matthew 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." Just as the prophecy in scripture foretold that from the house of David he would come of a virgin birth...... Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." Here it is clear that Christ is God, but immediately we are posed with a question that must be answered. Did the Father create or "procreate" another "God?" If He did, This would mean it would be a sin to worship Jesus, because it would violate the first commandment! Now we also have this, "Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." (Isaiah 43:10) The first commandment says, "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me." On two different occasions John was inclined to worship an angel. He was told by the angel, "See thou do it not: I am a fellow servant, and of they brethren that have the testimony of Jesus." (Revelation 19:10) Worship of a creature was clearly prohibited in the Bible. Worship of the Creator was another matter and we see it time and time again that Jesus accepted worship and was worthy to be worshipped. Of the Canaanite woman it was said, "Then came she and worshipped Him..." (Matthew 15:25). When Thomas recognized Him as the risen Christ he said, "My Lord and my God." (John 20:28), and the four and twenty elders give worship to the Creator, "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." Now in the resurrection the Bible tells us that men that are saved are equal to angels. "Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection."(Luke 20:36 ) Jesus was not equal to the angels He was equal to God, scripture repeatedly shows us this. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:(Philippians 2:6) If we look further to the context in Philippians 2:5-8, we understand clearly what Paul is saying: Talking of Jesus Christ, . . .'who being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.' Clearly, Paul shows that he believes that Jesus had existed as a divine Being before His birth, and that He volunteered to divest Himself of much of His glory, power, and prerogatives to become a lowly human being and to die to redeem humanity from its sins. Then we see the following in Hebrews which shows of Christ, 'angels of God worship him' and God says to the Son or Christ, 'Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever', so scripture lays out the path that the Holy Ghost can guide us into understanding. "4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.."(Hebrews 1:4-8). So you have to look at this issue of worship first, as God alone is entitled to supreme reverence and worship and man is forbidden to give to any other object the first place in his affections or his service or worship. So to worship any other is a sin, but then we have the mystery of the Godhead as Christ was not brought into existence, rather He always existed as one with the Father. We see Christ as the Creator, as Jehovah, as the Great I AM, and appeared in different ways more than fifty times in the Old Testament before coming as flesh in the New Testament. For any creature to claim the right to be worshipped is blaspheme. In fact the Jews falsely accused Jesus of this. "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."(John 10:33 ) Notice these scriptures that show Jesus was worshipped. Matthew 2:11 "And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh." Matthew 8:2 "And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean." Matthew 9:18 "While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live." Matthew 14:33 "Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God." Matthew 15:25 "Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me." Matthew 28:9 "And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him." Matthew 28:17 "And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted." Mark 5:6 "But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, Luke 24:52 "And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:" John 9:38 "And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him." Rev 5:14 "And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever." Matthew 4:10 "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." Then we have Jesus Himself showing us how He existed prior to the Incarnation and His role, it was not hidden, it is right there in the Bible. Speaking to the Jews, Jesus told them: John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see MY day: and he saw it, and was glad." The Jews were absolutely amazed at what Jesus sad, because Jesus was only in His early thirties, they could not ponder how He possibly have been alive in Abrahams day, so they reacted. John 8:57-58 "57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM." The Jews understood what was being declared, Jesus equating Himself with the eternal I AM. As the next verse says, "59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him". Jesus was directly and actively involved in the creation of man. Indeed you find in Genesis, God said... Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness (Genesis 1:26) Then there is a prediction of Christ's redemptive work on the cross in Genesis 3:15 : "And I will put enmity between you (the serpent) and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise you on the head, and you shall bruise Him on the heel." Christ was there at the beginning, from eternity, He is Jehovah God, God with us. Colossians 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."
  2. The wicked do not go to purgatory or any place of punishment as we see in pagan Greek thought as soon as they die, but are reserved in the grave until the day of judgment to be punished. Christ explicitly taught this truth in the parable of the wheat and the tares. Matthew 13:24-30 King James Version (KJV) 24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. Notice after the man had sown the wheat in the field, his servant came to report that tares were growing among the grain. His question was whether he should pull up the weeds and notice the answer , "Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn." Now look as Christ explains the meaning of the parable: "He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 13:37-42. It will burn the wicked till they are ashes, like Sodom and Gomorrah.
  3. You have to understand, that if God created them, they can be whatever matter, and still come to destruction.
  4. That is not what scripture shows us, in each and every case the word "tongue" has a specific meaning, supported by the actual meanings in Hebrew and Greek. Yet, people twist and turn and choose to ignore the actual meaning and substitute a totally different meaning to try to speak nonsense. They ignore what scripture has about speaking in tongues, to suit their use of muttering, mumbling or incomplete or mangled 'words' and calling it ‘heavenly language’.
  5. Now as for Sodom, is it still burning? Of course not, it is quite obvious that Sodom is not still burning. The Dead Sea is over the place where those ancient cities once stood. Yet they burned with "eternal fire," and we are told that it was an example of something. What is it an example of? "And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly." 2 Peter 2:6. Notice it says, "turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes." That eternal fire which brought Sodom to ashes is an example of what will finally happen to the wicked. The same kind of fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrha will also burn the wicked in the lake of fire. It will have to be eternal fire, which scripture shows will also burn the wicked to ashes? The Bible says, "For behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch ... And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1, 3.
  6. So you claim, but only God will decide, not man. Thus it is in Gods hands. Titus 3:5-6 King James Version (KJV) 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; Now many which say they are saved, will come to the end and be surprised. Matthew 7:22-24 King James Version (KJV) 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
  7. Christ was the Son of God establishing the new covenant by perfect obedience to the law of God in fallen human flesh. Jesus was not just a devout Jew living under the old covenant, He was our example of how to live in the covenant with God. No church or religious institution or denomination can bestow on man a religious experience based on an intimate personal relationship with Christ. It is not given through the acceptance of reciting hail marys or following dogma, and obedience to the commandments and the performing of rituals cannot earn it. The believer can only attain this relationship in a constant renewing, growing, and unlimited life with God, or he may slip into a worship in form only. Paul was so concerned about the slipping into a worship in form only, that he rebuked the churches in Galatia: Galatians 4:9-11 “9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.” It was necessary to explain to Jews and Gentiles alike the principles of man's salvation as an act of divine grace alone. Since man's obedience and keeping of the commandments could not contribute to his justification, if it was 'grace' alone, why then, obedience? Here we find the balance that excludes obedience as a means of 'earning' salvation but makes true obedience the natural fruit of salvation by faith. Human efforts at salvation by works are replaced by divine omnipotence as the only power to make man ready for the kingdom of righteousness. We must accept it by faith, and completely surrender our lives to Christ. A covenant, in the ancient Near East in general and in Old Testament times specifically, was a solemn promise and/or agreement, often confirmed by an oath. If you ask the question, "When did the old covenant begin?" most people would say on Sinai, when the law was given. But if you ask, "When did the new covenant begin?" the answers are all over the place, but one text can clarify it. Jeremiah 31:31-33 “31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. This text contains the basic elements of both covenants and also helps in understanding them. The old covenant has the time, "I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt". It has the covenant partners, "I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:" It has the covenant objective, "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. It has the covenant conditions, "my law" Now let’s look at the new covenant in Hebrews 8:8-10: “8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:" Using the same passage which is repeated, the same elements are found for the New Testament, except for the difference in time.” The new covenant has the time, "Behold, the days come". It has the covenant partners, "a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:" It has the covenant objective, " I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:". It has the covenant conditions, "my laws" So except for the time element, there is no difference between the two covenants. The covenant partners are the same, the covenant objective is the same, and the covenant conditions are the same. The old Covenant and the new Covenant are the same, it was by faith and denying self and trusting in God, and we are transformed. We see it here. Matthew 16:24-25 24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. John 10:1-17 1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. 6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them. 7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. John 10:27 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: The covenants are one and the same, and there is only one gospel, and it is the gospel of Jesus Christ which is of faith. It was always that way from Adam on down.
  8. All the wicked, Satan and his evil angels, will after the 1000 years of the saints going over the books in heaven, now stand before God for His final judgement. In the presence of the assembled inhabitants of earth and heaven the Son of God takes His place on the Great White throne. And now Jesus, invested with the divine supreme power and majesty He is due, pronounces sentence upon the wicked and Satan and his evil angels and executes justice upon those who have transgressed His law and persecuted His people.
  9. Now take a look at these verses: Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. This brings up another issue as we see God will create a new heaven and new earth for the New Jerusalem and the saints. The earth is declared to be the final home for the righteous as we see Jesus said, "Blessed are the meek: For they shall inherit the earth." Matthew 5:5. Peter, after describing this earth exploding and burning with a great noise, saw a new earth filled with righteousness. 2 Peter 3:13 "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." The wicked cannot continue to live in this planet because it has been specifically promised, in its entirety, to the saints, Abraham's spiritual seed: Romans 4:13 "For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith." After being purged of all the curse of sin, it will revert to the first dominion, and to God's original plan for it. It will be finally what God intended it to be, a home for Gods children. The wicked cannot continue to live in this earth because they never put their trust in Christ for eternal life. It is only the righteous who receive the gift of eternal life. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish. ..." John 3:16. But what about those who don't believe in him? They will perish as the wicked are never promised eternal life. They are promised death, a separation from God that is eternal death. Only the righteous are promised life, eternal life. Nowhere in the Bible do we read of the wicked being changed to immortality and get eternal life. And it is precisely because they never receive this gift of eternal life that they are unable to keep living in the lake of fire.If the wicked live eternally in the fire, then they have the same thing as the righteous except in a different place. There is only from one source that could give them eternal life, and that is Jesus Christ. John 3:16 settles this issue. Those who do not believe in the only begotten Son will perish. They will die, and it will be a complete separation from God. They will die the second death, an eternal death from which they will never be raised. That death is the final judgment on sinners. It is an endless, eternal punishment, because it is an endless, eternal death.
  10. That is in Gods hand. Now let me ask you a question, is Sodom still burning. "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." --Jude 1:7 KJV If we were supposed to take "eternal fire" as meaning it would be on fire burning forever then those cities would still be burning today; they are not of course. This means that the results of the fire is eternal; those cities have never been rebuilt and will never be. Now "for ever" can also reflect our contemporary understanding of "for ever" and that when used in connection to our eternal life it retains the contemporary usage. When one understands the big picture of what scripture is saying then it becomes clear how "for ever" and "eternity" are intended to be understood. Let's look to the Greek for a moment: aion ahee-ohn' from the same as *G104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):--age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). Compare **G5550. *G104. aei ah-eye' from an obsolete primary noun (apparently meaning continued duration); "ever,"by qualification regularly; by implication, earnestly; --always, ever. G5550 .chronos khron'-os of uncertain derivation; a space of time (in general, and thus properly distinguished from 2540, which designates a fixed or special occasion; and from 165, which denotes a particular period) or interval; by extension, an individual opportunity; by implication, delay:--+ years old, season, space, (X often-)time(-s), (a) while. The term "for ever," as used in the Bible, means simply a period of time, limited or unlimited. It is used 56 times in the Bible in connection with things that have already ended. The key is to consider its proper context and compare scriptures to get the full meaning.
  11. I would say the 'shoe is on the other foot', as the scripture with countless text, teaches that the wicked perish. This bias comes from Greek ideas that came into the church through Rome and Augustine and was applied to persecute anyone they saw as against them. Here is a good explanation.. "In Catholic theology, torture isn't only reserved for the eternally lost. The church teaches that even the saved will suffer in purgatory for their sins until their debt of temporary punishment for venial sin has been paid through their own suffering. But does suffering in hell appeal to the blood lust of an angry God, or do many Christians simply have the wrong picture of God? Where did this idea come from? The doctrine of hell, as is commonly believed, has its origin in Plato and its application in the writings of Augustine who believed that God must punish, not only save, otherwise no human life, lived well or badly, made any ultimate difference. (See James V. Schall, "Regarding the Inattentiveness to Hell in Political Philosophy,"DivusThomas, (Piacenza), (#3-4, 1989), 273-79.)....http://religiousliberty.tv/god-is-not-a-torturer-debunking-the-doctrine-of-eternal-torment.html
  12. How can one reconcile the following verses with the doctrine of eternal torment? Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. Ps 68:1 Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him. 2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.3 But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice. Ps 73:27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee. Ps 112:10 The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish. Isa 41:11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish.12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought. John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 1 Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. II Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Pet 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 2 Pet 3: 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Jude 1: 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. The last verse is a conclusive statement as to the effects of eternal fire. Sodom and Gommorrha are no more.
  13. No, to be a thief or fall into stealing, and to pay for ceaseless ages and ages is not just, and God is just. The Biblical teaching is simple; the results of hell-fire are eternal, everlasting, and forever; the actual fire and those burning in it are not. I think people can get confused with the actual burning and the final result and purpose of hell-fire. The result lasts forever, the fires do not. This confusion is reflected well in the following verse where "everlasting" is the stumbling-block word but now that you know the truth verses like this become easily understandble: Daniel 12:2 - And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Many portions of the Bible simply cannot be reconciled unless the reader understands that the term for ever or not be quenched or unquenchable can also mean until it is done/accomplished and not always the ceaseless ages of eternity as is the common English meaning. For the Bible to be consistent, which we all know it is and all believers should understand that, then WE must change, not the Bible. We must change our understanding and get rid of preconcieved notions. As with anything, the reader must understand the context as well as the Biblical meaning of words, not the modern, in order to fully comprehend the meaning. The term "for ever," as used in the Bible, means simply a period of time, limited or unlimited. It is used 56 times in the Bible in connection with things that have already ended. The key is to consider its proper context and compare scriptures to get the full meaning. Unless one reads with the desire to understand and the willingness to compare scriptures then they will not understand this topic or any others that the Bible teaches its just that simple.
  14. So the wicked get eternal life, I don't think Christ or His word support that.
  15. Ok, lets say I go to hell, and your in heaven, do I stay alive as long as you do. As we say in the islands, same dog puppy, I would have eternal life just as you, and that is not what Christ or His word says about the gift of eternal life.
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