Adstar Posted May 20, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 12 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,399 Content Per Day: 0.43 Reputation: 1,307 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted May 20, 2003 Hello all I have been thinking about a question from a young friend of mine and I thought some of you might want to give me your input. The question is: God has angels, which he created. they live in heaven. so from the moment they were created they were assured eternal security with God as long as they don't do something like follow Satan. and God made us, who, from the moment we are born, are condemned to eternal punishment. i know Adam and Eve were created sinless at first and ruined it themselves. but that doesn't say anything about us. i didn't eat from the tree. so God created two different kinds of beings, one getting off scott free, the other condemned from birth. everyone says God is just, but that sounds exactly the opposite. So how to answer this one??? where to start I look forward to you suggestions All Praise The Ancient Of Days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad Ernie Posted May 20, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,802 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 46 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/29/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/01/1945 Share Posted May 20, 2003 Greetings Adstar, It is either written in the Word or it is of tradition that one third of the angels fell with Lucifer. They too are held accountable for their word and deed and thoughts (pride was Satan's downfall). They do NOT have eternal security. The problem with angels is that they cannot be redeemed, they are "spirit" beings and without the shedding of blood there is no redemption from sin. It is also written "For your own sin shall ye die." Because of Adam's sin we are all now born under the umbrella of that sin, but you have to consider that the sins of the father shall not be put on the Son and vice versa. And in regard to us being born under the curse of etneral punishment - If you do a study of the Lamb's Book of Life, you will find it very interesting. Look up everything you can find about this "Book", and phrases that have "foundation" in them. From this you will see a picture develop and I am looking forward to see what your conclusions are. Blessings, Dad Ernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneAccord Posted May 21, 2003 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 147 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,587 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/03/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted May 21, 2003 Adstar: You can remind your firend that there are angels being held in prison, "in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgement of that great day...."Jude 6 Also 2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgement..." They are most definitely NOT scott free. Dad Ernie: I'm interested to take you up on that one, I hope I get a little extra time for that study soon. It seems to be you had started a thread on this a while back, but maybe it got derailed or sidetracked or something because I can't remember any conclusions......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneAccord Posted May 21, 2003 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 147 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,587 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/03/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted May 21, 2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted May 21, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted May 21, 2003 God has angels, which he created. they live in heaven. so from the moment they were created they were assured eternal security with God as long as they don't do something like follow Satan. This premise is false from the get-go. The fact that God created the angels and that they live in the heavenlies with God, does not assure their salvation. When your friend says "eternal security" it may mean something different than what we believers understand as eternal security. As believers in Christ our eternal security is the assurance that having partaken of the blood of Christ in faith, God will save us at the consumation of the age. Our eternal security is essentially "Christ in you, the hope of glory." (Col. 1:27, cf. 1 Tim. 1:1; Rom. 5:2) The Scriptures indicate that angels were created with free will, yet without the capacity of understanding eternal salvation in Christ. First, as Dad Ernie pointed out one third of the angels of heaven rebelled with Lucifer and were cast down to the earth with him (Rev. 12:4, 7-9; 9:1; cf. Job. 38:7; Isa. 14:12 Luke 10:18). This indicates that the angels were created with a free will to chose one thing over another. Second, that the angels were created without the capacity of understanding the dynamics of eternal salvation is evident in the following verse: "To them it was revealed that not to themselves but to you they ministered these things, which have now been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, which things angels long to look into." (1 Pet. 1:12) This verse shows how interested the angels are in observing the things concerning Christ for God's salvation. They declared and celebrated the Savior's birth (Luke 2:8-14), they rejoice over the sinners' repenting to receive salvation (Luke 15:10), and they are happy to serve those who inherit salvation (Heb. 1:14; Acts 12:15; Matt. 18:10). The angels are given to know of salvation, but it is not their portion to receive the salvation of God by the blood of Christ. Eternal salvation in the blood of Christ is for the redemption of fallen humanity. and God made us, who, from the moment we are born, are condemned to eternal punishment. i know Adam and Eve were created sinless at first and ruined it themselves. but that doesn't say anything about us. i didn't eat from the tree. Your friend does not have to eat from the wrong tree as Adam and Eve did to have indwelling sin. All who are born of Adam (ie. all people born to the human race) are born with indwelling sin (Rom. 5:12, 15, 21; 1 Cor. 15:21). Mankind is under God's righteous judgment because of this indwelling sin, which works in us to produce sins, or offenses, before God (Rom. 7:17-24). so God created two different kinds of beings, one getting off scott free, the other condemned from birth. everyone says God is just, but that sounds exactly the opposite. Please tell your friend that no one gets off "scott free." God's justice is not dependent upon any man's definition or concept. Only in Christ is any man justified by God (Rom. 3:24). God's righteousness and holiniess must be satisfied by the shedding of blood. Jesus Christ has paid the eternal price for our salvation and justification by God. If we do not take that way, yes, we are under God's condemnation; and if we do God justifies us according to the blood of Christ, and our eternity is secured. God presents us with the facts and we decide (Deut. 30:19). He never pushes Himself on any person. He has given us the free will to chose which path we will take. Therefore, choose life. Grace, Beau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godrulz Posted May 21, 2003 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 885 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/19/1960 Share Posted May 21, 2003 I agree with much of Ernie's and God-Man's thoughts. I would suggest the possibility that the doctrine of Original Sin is more Augustinian or Catholic than biblical. It does not seem that sin is a nebulous substance lodged in our anatomy and genetically passed on since Adam. Rather, if sin is a wrong moral choice, then we are truly responsible for it. If it is genetic from Adam, then God would not seem just to judge an innocent baby for Adam's sin. The soul that sins is the one that will die. So, myself and others over the centuries have concluded that there was a physical depravity passed on from Adam, but not a moral depravity. This is why babies are innocent and go to heaven (yet eventually live for the flesh and not the spirit), even if they are not baptized in the Catholic Church to deal with the supposed Original Sin. The NIV translation of 'sinful nature' is actually 'flesh' (Greek). The translators read their theological bias into the text. It is a moot point though, because eventually we ALL sin (Romans) and fall short of God's standard of perfection. We will all choose to be supremely selfish (even if we are 'good' people) and our subordinate choices will form a nature in us over time. Salvation is not eradicating an Adamic nature lodged in us. It is repentance, faith, and obedience in a love relationship with God (morals, not metaphysics). (see lawyer/revivalist Charles G. Finney's writings + Gordon Olson, Keith Green, George Otis Jr. and others) Sorry I openned the can of worms...I know the proof texts that are coming, but I do not have time to properly respond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted May 21, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted May 21, 2003 This seems to have been one of the more minor theological "sticky areas," however; that rather than original sin being passed down through the generations, it is merely physical imperfection or physical death that has been handed down. A solid argument can be made for both sides. Although I would not attribute the original sin doctrine to be solely Catholic, as Protestant theologins held on to this particular theological viewpoint through the Reformation and on to today. Yet, as you pointed out godrulz, both sides agree that the propensity to sin is there eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traveller Posted May 21, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 827 Topics Per Day: 0.10 Content Count: 12,101 Content Per Day: 1.50 Reputation: 249 Days Won: 3 Joined: 04/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted May 21, 2003 Okay, let me ask you college boys something. (I say that with love and admiration, by the way) I always thought that both applied. That we make a moral choice to sin, but, because Adam sinned, decay and death was introduced into the human genes, like a virus. So, we choose to sin, making it a spiritual death, but we have carnal death because of Adam's sin. Is this out of line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted May 21, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted May 21, 2003 Not at all. The way I understand it is that moral, spiritual and physical death have been passed on from Adam. But there are hardline theologins that argue that only physical death was passed on and not moral and spiritual death. The one would seem to indicate that infants are subject to God's judgement, where the other does not. I believe that it is key to note that Paul's argument concerning judgement and sin is such that those without the knowledge of the law are free from accountability, whereas those that know the law (or at least those that have heard the Gospel) are accountable. This leads into the whole doctrinal theology of "age of accountability" though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adstar Posted May 21, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 12 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,399 Content Per Day: 0.43 Reputation: 1,307 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/01/2002 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 21, 2003 Hello again :il: Hey what a great response, many insightful contributions God Man Second, that the angels were created without the capacity of understanding the dynamics of eternal salvation is evident in the following verse: "To them it was revealed that not to themselves but to you they ministered these things, which have now been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, which things angels long to look into." (1 Pet. 1:12) This verse shows how interested the angels are in observing the things concerning Christ for God's salvation. They declared and celebrated the Savior's birth (Luke 2:8-14), they rejoice over the sinners' repenting to receive salvation (Luke 15:10), and they are happy to serve those who inherit salvation (Heb. 1:14; Acts 12:15; Matt. 18:10). Very good observation I will be using this in my reply thanks One Accord You can remind your firend that there are angels being held in prison, "in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgement of that great day...."Jude 6 Also 2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgement..." They are most definitely NOT scott free. Amen Sister :il: I love good scriptural quotes and I will be using Jude6 in my reply for sure. Dad ernie It is either written in the Word or it is of tradition that one third of the angels fell with Lucifer. They too are held accountable for their word and deed and thoughts (pride was Satan's downfall). They do NOT have eternal security. The problem with angels is that they cannot be redeemed, they are "spirit" beings and without the shedding of blood there is no redemption from sin. It is also written "For your own sin shall ye die." Because of Adam's sin we are all now born under the umbrella of that sin, but you have to consider that the sins of the father shall not be put on the Son and vice versa. And in regard to us being born under the curse of etneral punishment - If you do a study of the Lamb's Book of Life, you will find it very interesting. Look up everything you can find about this "Book", and phrases that have "foundation" in them. From this you will see a picture develop and I am looking forward to see what your conclusions are. It is the WORD that 1/3rd of the Angles fell with satan Dad. I agree that they do not have "eternal security" but I am not sure if the young man really understands the concept of Eternal Security as it is seen by many. So I will not work that doctrine into my reply. You brought up the "book of life" Well I agree that God has known all who will be saved from the "foundation" (ie Beginning of time) of the world, But I do not believe we can know who is written into the book until it is revealed to us at the final judgment. Likewise with the doctrine of "Eternal Security" As interpreted by many may be true But one does not know ones own future so one can never know if one is Eternally Secure (As most people interpret eternal security to mean). I will be thinking on the Book of life i may use it in my reply to the teenager but I feel it might be too meaty for him to consume. Thanks to everyone for contributing to this :il: I am happy to receive such help with wisdom. All Praise The Ancient Of Days PS: If anyone thinks they have some more insightful scripture or observation please feel free to enlighten us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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