Restoring A Torah-Positive Perspective

[Jake for Jesus]

nebula wrote:

The way you have explained it, it sounds like because a person is under grace, then it's OK to steal or commit adultry or dishonor your parents - because these are rules of the law.

My Response:

Really? Surely you don't think the Holy Spirit would lead us to sin do you?

Edited September 16, 2005 by Jake for Jesus

[nebula]

No, I was saying that the way you were arguing, not just in here but also in the thread from which this discussion came, one could think that "no longer living under the law" meant we didn't have to obey it - which means its OK to do those things the law says not to.

So, if this is not what you are saying, then you do need to clarify this.

Or it sounds like you are saying that being under grace means we are incapable of such deeds - which is totally false. Paul wouldn't advocate that and then turn around and admit he still sins (Romans 7:14-25).

And what of this?

(Note, I said this is what it sounds like you are saying - so if not, again please clarify!)

[Jake for Jesus]

No, I was saying that the way you were arguing, not just in here but also in the thread from which this discussion came, one could think that "no longer living under the law" meant we didn't have to obey it - which means its OK to do those things the law says not to.

So, if this is not what you are saying, then you do need to clarify this.

Or it sounds like you are saying that being under grace means we are incapable of such deeds - which is totally false. Paul wouldn't advocate that and then turn around and admit he still sins (Romans 7:14-25).

And what of this?

(Note, I said this is what it sounds like you are saying - so if not, again please clarify!)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

First off, I did not write that you did!

Are you wanting to explain this Scripture reference you gave (Romans 7:14-25)?

If so this is my understanding of Romans 7:14-25:

According to position mentioned in those passages here Paul relates his own experience as a Christian to teach the lesson that the Law cannot deliver one who is struggling against sin. While the Law can enlighten one's conscience, it is powerless to produce holiness of life. The fault, however, is not with the Law of God, which is spiritual. The fault is the law of sin, the indwelling depravity of human nature, which rebels against God's laws. Paul seems to be declaring that he is carnal, a creature, which sold under sin, in captivity to sin. Throughout this life a conflict goes on between the new nature and the old, but there is a way to victory: Christ frees us to live in the power of the Holy Spirit (see verse 25 - 8:11).

Edited September 16, 2005 by Jake for Jesus

[nebula]

First off, I did not write that you did!

I said, "It sounds like you are saying. . . ."

You've really lost me here.

[nebula]

Let me try again -

It sounds to me like you are saying either:

A) "No longer living under the law" means we didn't have to obey it

or

B) Being under grace means we are completely incapable of sinning

Would you please clarify.

[Leonard]

Excellent insights, Shiloh! I'm sorry I didn't read it sooner. I was very blessed to serve under a Bishop who sees it much the same way. It made preaching a lot easier, as I didn't have try to be politic!

[TEXASGRANDMA]

"Your exactly right! So tell me what do the Scriptures reveal to us as for the purpose of the law?"

The law is our school master that shows us our need for salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord.

betty

[Guest shiloh357]

Let's look at another passage and see Romans 8:14: "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God."

Do we live as sons of God by keeping a set of rules?

No, absolutely not.

We live as sons of God by being led by the Holy Spirit, and that is the only way we can live as God's mature children

Being led by the Spirit does not mean that we don't have commandments (you call them rules) to observe. We do not live as the sons of God by keeping the commandments in our own strength. However we DO live as the sons of God by doing what He has told us to do in His Word, empowered by the Holy Spirit.

You keep wanting to use the term "rules." Let me address that for a minute. As believers we understand that what we have entered into is not a set of rules, but a living, vibrant relationship of love and trust with our Heavenly Father through our Messiah, Yeshua. But as in any relationship, there are "rules." Every relationship has rules, if we are honest about it. The rules vary depending on the type of relationship. There are rules, or boundary lines in all of our interactions with people at work, in our friendships, dating relationships, marriages, etc. As long as the lines are not crossed, as long as the boundary lines are respected, these relationships are blessed and happy. If the boundaries are not respected, chaos will ensue.

nebula wrote:

The way you have explained it, it sounds like because a person is under grace, then it's OK to steal or commit adultry or dishonor your parents - because these are rules of the law.

My Response:

Really? Surely you don't think the Holy Spirit would lead us to sin do you?

What Nebula is pointing out is that an anti-Torah worldview, at least as you are approaching it in this thread, is internally inconsistent. Many of those who argue against the Torah being observed, would never advocate murder or adultery, or lying and so forth. Yet these are "rules" (think mitzvot) of the Torah.

Shiloh wrote:

No one was ever made righteous by the Torah.

My Response:

Your exactly right! So tell me what do the Scriptures reveal to us as for the purpose of the law? By the way our posts crossed. You were posting as I was posting and it was my thought you may had not seen last post.

If I am right, then why did you argue that there are two possible means of attaining righteousness, either by observing law or by grace? You seemed to express the common misconception that people in the OT were saved by the Torah, but we are saved by grace, today.

What do the Scriptures tell us the purpose of the Torah is? OK, here in no particular order is what the Bible tells us about the purpose of the Torah.

1. 1. The Torah demonstrates Lifestyle (Matt. 5:17-21) Yeshua in the sermon on the mount set about revealing the Torah to his hearers. He did exactly what the ancient Rabbis thought He would do. He began expounding the true meaning of the Torah. He did NOT set about to abrogate it.
   
   
2. The Torah leads us to Messiah (Rom. 10:4, Gal. 3:24) Messiah is the telos (goal, main focus) of the Torah. It is also the schoolmaster to point us to Messiah.
   
   
3. Torah sets boundaries by teaching what is right or wrong, pleasing or not pleasing to God. (Rom. 7:7) The Torah essentially defines, or brings a knowledge of, sin. It holds up the standard of righteousness. It does not make anyone righteous, but rather shows us what righteouness, love, holiness, etc. looks like. In doing so, it shows us the difference between what is sinful and what is right in the eyes of the Lord.
   
   
4. The Torah teaches about redemption and how Yeshua accomplishes our redemption. (Luke 24:44, John 5:39, 46)
   

The Bible uses synonyms for the commandments of God. It calls them precepts, statutes, testimonies, judgements and even defines obedience to God's commandments as the "fear of the Lord." Psalms 19, starting at v.7 tells us some important things about the Torah. The Torah:

• Restores the soul
  
• Rejoices the heart
  
• Enlightens the eyes
  
• Endures forever (see also Psalm 119:152, 160)
  
• Is true, and righteous
  
• Is more desirable than gold
  
• Sweeter than honey
  

The same chapter goes on to say that there is great reward in keeping God's commandments, and that they warn us against straying from the path that is pleasing to the Lord.

The Bible does not come close to portraying the Torah in the negative light that modern Christianity seems to intent on imposing upon it. It is important to point out that the Torah is the seed-bed for all of the theology that will follow in the Word of God. The Torah encapsulates all of Paul's letters, and the letters of the other Apostles, not to mention the very teachings of Jesus. The entire New Testament is writtem from Torah knowledge, and in Paul's day, His letters would have been tested against the only known set of Scriptures at that time, the Tenach (OT).

[Jake for Jesus]

nebula wrote:

Let me try again -

It sounds to me like you are saying either:

A) "No longer living under the law" means we didn't have to obey it

or

B) Being under grace means we are completely incapable of sinning

Would you please clarify.

My Response:

Here is the difference I see between me and you and others posting here: "You people see Christianity as being a set of rules, and I do not. I see Christianity not as being a set of rules, but as being led by the Holy Spirit." Of course, it's okay by me if you want to see Christianity as being a set of rules, only I do not.

Edited September 16, 2005 by Jake for Jesus

[Jake for Jesus]

Shiloh wrote:

If I am right, then why did you argue that there are two possible means of attaining righteousness, either by observing law or by grace?

My Response:

Because the Bible does deal with two methods by which to achieve righteousness with God: law and grace --- but can any one be justified (made righteous) by keeping the law? No, but that does not change the fact that the Bible deals with two methods to achieve righteousness, and there is reason for it. It's to show us our need of a Savior. While that is not the only purpose of the law, but it was the primary reason in which the law was given. It was to show us our need of a Savior.

Edited September 16, 2005 by Jake for Jesus