The Father

[DPMartin]

On 8/4/2022 at 6:01 PM, JohnD said:

I'm sorry, I'm missing your point somehow.

of course you are

[JohnD]

On 8/4/2022 at 10:24 AM, DPMartin said:

It’s not confusing at all, though I do believe what you’re talking about in reference to confusion is intentional.

This is what I don't understand that you are driving at.

[JohnD]

There is no attempt on my part to confuse anyone or make anything confusing.

Quite the opposite.

On any subject... any subject, ignorance or supposition clouds and confounds truth / reality.

The so-called Apostle's Creed begins with (depending on which version you read):

"We believe in God the Father, Creator of Heaven and Earth..." when clearly the Son, Jesus, God the Word

is the Creator of all things created in the beginning (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:2) which Isaiah 44:24

as clearly states he did it alone by himself.

The scriptures indicate he was in the company of the Father (1 John 1:1-2) and of the Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:1-2)

but that God the Word who became Jesus (John 1:1 / John 1:14) acted alone by himself.

And God the Father's only creation is that of the Son (the humanity of Jesus):

John 1:14 (AV)
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Hebrews 10:5 (AV)
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Hebrews 1:5 (AV)
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

It's no wonder the Trinity (nature of God) is so confusing and appears to be contradictory to many. People keep attributing things to the Father that Jesus is or did and vice versa. And many can't even make up their minds if the Holy Spirit is a he or an it...

Acts 5:3-4 clearly indicates the Holy Spirit is God.

Acts 13:2 as clearly indicates he has personhood (choice and speech) and authority.

The other suppositions that confound mankind are the attempts to explain the triune nature of God in clever terms like 1 x 1 x 1 = 1 (the late D. James Kennedy often used that one). ← a very great man for Jesus, btw. But that is Modalism / Sabellianism / Oneness theology because it's the same 1... holding up the same finger three times is all that is doing.  Then there's the egg analogy (shell, white, yolk) or tripoint of water (ice, liquid, steam)... none of which are accurate.

God is Spirit (John 4:24).

And that one God consists of three individuals who are the one God (John 1:1-2 / 1 John 1:1-2 / Genesis 1:1-2).

It's just a matter of fact. And if you want to believe in the true God and not some figment of your or or anyone else's imagination... you just have to accept what the Bible teaches. We do this with almost everything else we learn about. The three spatial dimensions. The sun shines. You can't go back in time. Death and taxes... et al. 

It is imperative we get to know this true God.

Matthew 7:21–23 (AV)
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.**
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

** John 6:29 (AV)
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Not only faith alone, but believing in the actual Jesus and not some contrived jesus made up by Satan and man (Matthew 16:23 / 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 / Galatians 1:8-9).

Mark 7:7 (AV)
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mark 7:13 (AV)
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Scary stuff!

Imagine even the remote possibility of climbing what you thought was the correct religious ladder only to find Jesus judging you as a worker of iniquity saying you never knew the real HIM.

That itself ought to drive us to the scriptures with the tutoring of the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:20-21 / 1 John 4:1 / Acts 17:11) to be absolutely certain who we believe, what we believe, why we believe is even the truth.

For he the Holy Spirit leads us to all truth (John 16:13) but we must test the Spirits (1 John 4:1) because we are so gullible, by the scriptures themselves (Acts 17:11 / 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Deuteronomy 29:29 (AV)
29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Isaiah 28:9–13 (AV)
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Proverbs 25:2 (AV)
2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Psalm 119:105 (AV)
Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

[Keiw1]

On 8/4/2022 at 10:26 AM, JohnD said:

The incarnation of God the Word (John 1:1 / John 1:14) is an Old Testament prophetic mystery. 

Once we learn who and what God the Word is, we learn that the Heavenly Father is also an Old Testament prophetic mystery.

One most are unaware of even today.

Because most assume the LORD of the Old Testament is the Heavenly Father.

But the LORD of the Old Testament is rather God the Word (the preincarnate Jesus).

Being eternal, the Heavenly Father was present (obviously).

But he is rarely spoken of in the Bible until the New Testament.

__________________________________________________________________________

1 John 2:13 (AV)
13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

???

If the Father was the LORD of the Old Testament, what distinguishes these Christians from the Jews?

John 16:3 (AV)
3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

Jesus was referring to religious Jews who went to synagogue (where the Old Testament is read and studied).

John 17:25 (AV)
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

It's no wonder people find the simple facts about the Trinity (the triune nature of the one God) so confusing / hard to understand... because they keep misinterpreting who and what each of them are.

The so-called Apostle's Creed begins with the error that God the Father is the Creator of heaven and Earth. The Bible teaches that the preincarnate Jesus is the lone Creator of all things created in the beginning by himself (John 1:3 / Colossians 1:16 / Isaiah 44:24).

Jesus is the Father of creation:

Colossians 1:16 (AV)
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

John 1:3 (AV)
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Luke 3:38 (AV)
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Adam was the son of God the Word. Jesus is the Son of God the Father ← his only creation (John 1:14 / John 3:16 / John 3:18 / 1 John 4:9)

The people who claim all human beings are children of God have it half right.

All human beings are children of God the Word.

Only believers in Jesus Christ are adopted children of his Father the Heavenly Father:

Romans 8:14–15 (AV)
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

John 16:27 (AV)
27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

The office of the Heavenly Father is that of ultimate authority (Acts 1:7) sending the Son into the world (John 6:29) and the Holy Spirit (John 14:26) with which he is equal but whose office / mission is greater (John 10:29 / John 14:28) ← greater in authority not better in nature.

 

You are mistaken sir--YHWH(Jehovah) is called GOD or LORD all capitols in the OT. Every single spot, nearly 6800 of them. The tetragramoton( YHWH) was removed by satans will and replaced with GOD or LORD. Men had no right removing that name. God inspired his name in those spots because he wants it there. The sad part about all of it is that every scholar on earth knows its fact. And all using the altered versions of Gods written word atre being mislead to support satans will over Gods will on that matter.

And the psalmist was clear--YHWH said to my Lord( Jesus) --Your versions have-The LORD said to my Lord. Jesus is never called LORD all capitols in the bible.

[JohnD]

15 hours ago, Keiw1 said:

 

You are mistaken sir--YHWH(Jehovah) is called GOD or LORD all capitols in the OT. Every single spot, nearly 6800 of them. The tetragramoton( YHWH) was removed by satans will and replaced with GOD or LORD. Men had no right removing that name. God inspired his name in those spots because he wants it there. The sad part about all of it is that every scholar on earth knows its fact. And all using the altered versions of Gods written word atre being mislead to support satans will over Gods will on that matter.

And the psalmist was clear--YHWH said to my Lord( Jesus) --Your versions have-The LORD said to my Lord. Jesus is never called LORD all capitols in the bible.

Actually it is you who is not correct, sir / ma'am.

1. YHVH is the correct tetragrammaton יהוה (right to left)

2. Adonai was substituted by the Jews for YHVH (pronunciation) and hence the Anglicized translation LORD / the LORD since the Jews interpreted Exodus 20:7 / Deuteronomy 5:11 to include not mispronouncing the name of God **

3. Jesus is clearly YHVH and claims to be (John 8:58 / Exodus 3:13-15)

4. Isaiah 44:24 declares YHVH created heaven and earth ALONE BY HIMSELF. John 1:3 / Colossians 1:16 clearly indicates that Lone Creator is JESUS.

** The translation "Jehovah" was a mistaken mistranslation by non-Jewish scholars who were unaware the Jews placed the consonants for Adonai below YHVH to remind the readers of the scriptures to say "Lord" rather than  risk mispronouncing the sacred name of God. This had the effect of the actual correct way to pronounce the name  lost to history. Yah being the only agreed upon partial pronunciation to date.

Edited August 12, 2022 by JohnD

[Keiw1]

7 hours ago, JohnD said:

Actually it is you who is not correct, sir / ma'am.

1. YHVH is the correct tetragrammaton יהוה (right to left)

2. Adonai was substituted by the Jews for YHVH (pronunciation) and hence the Anglicized translation LORD / the LORD since the Jews interpreted Exodus 20:7 / Deuteronomy 5:11 to include not mispronouncing the name of God **

3. Jesus is clearly YHVH and claims to be (John 8:58 / Exodus 3:13-15)

4. Isaiah 44:24 declares YHVH created heaven and earth ALONE BY HIMSELF. John 1:3 / Colossians 1:16 clearly indicates that Lone Creator is JESUS.

** The translation "Jehovah" was a mistaken mistranslation by non-Jewish scholars who were unaware the Jews placed the consonants for Adonai below YHVH to remind the readers of the scriptures to say "Lord" rather than  risk mispronouncing the sacred name of God. This had the effect of the actual correct way to pronounce the name  lost to history. Yah being the only agreed upon partial pronunciation to date.

Jesus never claimed to be YHVH.  

Yes it was the Jewish who removed Gods name by satans will. God wants his name known and used, just not in vain which Israel did over and over. His name belongs in the NT as well. religions claiming to be christian removed it there. Jerome, told the Pope Gods name belongs in the NT. I cannot read the latin vulgate so i dont know if it was allowed to put in the NT.

Yes only YHVH has the power, so in that aspect he alone created it all, he created his only begotton( created direct) son first= The Firstborn of all creation( Coll 1:15) then created all other things through Jesus. But since YHVH is the only one with the power he alone gets the credit. Jesus is Gods master worker of Prov 8-he speaks there and tells all he was created. Men say Jehovah is wrong. I believe God himself and his son has made that name known( John 17:26)

[Keiw1]

7 hours ago, JohnD said:

Actually it is you who is not correct, sir / ma'am.

1. YHVH is the correct tetragrammaton יהוה (right to left)

2. Adonai was substituted by the Jews for YHVH (pronunciation) and hence the Anglicized translation LORD / the LORD since the Jews interpreted Exodus 20:7 / Deuteronomy 5:11 to include not mispronouncing the name of God **

3. Jesus is clearly YHVH and claims to be (John 8:58 / Exodus 3:13-15)

4. Isaiah 44:24 declares YHVH created heaven and earth ALONE BY HIMSELF. John 1:3 / Colossians 1:16 clearly indicates that Lone Creator is JESUS.

** The translation "Jehovah" was a mistaken mistranslation by non-Jewish scholars who were unaware the Jews placed the consonants for Adonai below YHVH to remind the readers of the scriptures to say "Lord" rather than  risk mispronouncing the sacred name of God. This had the effect of the actual correct way to pronounce the name  lost to history. Yah being the only agreed upon partial pronunciation to date.

Jesus just answered the pharisees question honestly-he lived before Abraham--Your religions use the i am, but---There is no i am that i am in the Hebrew written OT. Its mistranslated to fit that false teaching given to you to try and support there belief of John 8:58. I will be what i will be is the correct translating of that Hebrew passage. The Israelite spiritual teachers hearts were filled with hatred for Jesus, they NEVER said a truth about him. 

 

[JohnD]

6 hours ago, Keiw1 said:

Jesus just answered the pharisees question honestly-he lived before Abraham--Your religions use the i am, but---There is no i am that i am in the Hebrew written OT. Its mistranslated to fit that false teaching given to you to try and support there belief of John 8:58. I will be what i will be is the correct translating of that Hebrew passage. The Israelite spiritual teachers hearts were filled with hatred for Jesus, they NEVER said a truth about him. 

 

God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'" 

ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם

From Chabad.org

You will note the interpretation / translation in parenthesis meaning tradition rather than original text / manuscript.

In fact, ehyeh asher ehyeh is without time specification.

I AM / I WAS / I WILL BE

BECAUSE

I AM / I WAS / I WILL BE

Or in the Greek NT:

Revelation 1:8 (AV)
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

And according to the Hebrew names that include YAH, the clear reference is to I AM.

John 8:58 is immediately followed by verse 59 where the Jew3s in company who did not believe Jesus is YHVH incarnate took up stones to stone him for blasphemy. They would not have done so for merely claiming to be alive before Abraham as you suggest.

Your dilemma is with the Word of God.

[JohnD]

6 hours ago, Keiw1 said:

Jesus never claimed to be YHVH. 

I showed you in John 8:58 - 59 where Jesus made just that claim.

The Bible carries a lot more weight than your say so / denials.

 

[JohnD]

6 hours ago, Keiw1 said:

Yes only YHVH has the power, so in that aspect he alone created it all, he created his only begotton( created direct) son first= The Firstborn of all creation( Coll 1:15) then created all other things through Jesus. But since YHVH is the only one with the power he alone gets the credit. Jesus is Gods master worker of Prov 8-he speaks there and tells all he was created. Men say Jehovah is wrong. I believe God himself and his son has made that name known( John 17:26)

Nope. You are not going to try to parse your way out of what scripture clearly states.

Isaiah 44:24 (AV)
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Colossians 1:16 (AV)
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

John 1:3 (AV)
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jesus is YHVH incarnate.

You lose Keiwi.