Faith and Works

[Trust & Obey]

I beg you please, say what YOU believe about this topic and refrain from telling me what I believe.

Fiosh, funny you should mention this. Because I was ready to tell you to tell me what YOU believe and not what the Catholic Church believes.

The Catholic Church believes and teaches that there is no salvation apart from the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

[Trust & Obey]

Jake -

Are we talking about salvation or Christian living?  I am feeling confused here.

For salvation is not merrited on works.  However, Christian living does merit works - you know - producing fruit.  Jesus said that the trees that do not produce fruit are chopped down.

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nebula, fruit and works are diametrically opposed. Works are what we do proactively... fruit is what grows in our lives naturally as we remain in Christ.

Paul makes the distrinction this way in Galatians:

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Works and fruit are contrasted. However, as a figure of speech I guess one could say that works are the fruit of our salvation.

[Guest shiloh357]

nebula, fruit and works are diametrically opposed. Works are what we do proactively... fruit is what grows in our lives naturally as we remain in Christ.

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This is not true. There are different kinds of works. Works OF THE FLESH are diametrically opposed to the Fruit of the Spirit, but not the good works we are commanded to do. Good works, which we are commanded to do, are how the Fruit of the Spirit is manifest in our lives. It is good works the Holy Spirit leads us to perform. The Fruit of the Spirit is the product of a life of good works empowered by the Holy Spirit. Fruit is what is seen as we live out the character of Christ before men.

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

(Matthew 5:16)

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

(Ephesians 2:10)

Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded; nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

(1 Timothy 6:17-18)

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

(2 Timothy 3:16-17)

Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded. In all things showing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine showing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity, Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.

(Titus 2:6-8)

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

(Titus 2:13-14)

And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

(Titus 3:14)

Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

(1 Peter 2:11-12)

We are expected to maintain good works in order that we are not unfruitful. We are not saved by good works, but our works should be the demonstration of the faith we proclaim. We claim to be Christians, then our lives should show it through our deeds.

The Fruit of the Spirit is manifest in us, when we live in obedience to the Father, through the power of the Holy Spirit.

[Trust & Obey]

nebula, fruit and works are diametrically opposed. Works are what we do proactively... fruit is what grows in our lives naturally as we remain in Christ.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is not true. There are different kinds of works. Works OF THE FLESH are diametrically opposed to the Fruit of the Spirit, but not the good works we are commanded to do. Good works, which we are commanded to do, are how the Fruit of the Spirit is manifest in our lives. It is good works the Holy Spirit leads us to perform. The Fruit of the Spirit is the product of a life of good works empowered by the Holy Spirit. Fruit is what is seen as we live out the character of Christ before men.

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

(Matthew 5:16)

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

(Ephesians 2:10)

Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded; nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

(1 Timothy 6:17-18)

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

(2 Timothy 3:16-17)

Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded. In all things showing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine showing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity, Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.

(Titus 2:6-8)

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

(Titus 2:13-14)

And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

(Titus 3:14)

Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

(1 Peter 2:11-12)

We are expected to maintain good works in order that we are not unfruitful. We are not saved by good works, but our works should be the demonstration of the faith we proclaim. We claim to be Christians, then our lives should show it through our deeds.

The Fruit of the Spirit is manifest in us, when we live in obedience to the Father, through the power of the Holy Spirit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Shiloh, I guess to sum up my point it could be restated that works are what we do, and fruit is what God does. You never see an apple tree working to produce fruit. You never see a tree straining and struggling to pop out an apple. It is a natural byproduct of being connected to the trunk.

Likewise, the fruit of the Spirit is the natural byproduct of being connected to the True Vine, Jesus Christ.

Works are what we do... fruit is what God does as we are connected to him. We can never "work fruit" in our lives.

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh, I guess to sum up my point it could be restated that works are what we do, and fruit is what God does. You never see an apple tree working to produce fruit. You never see a tree straining and struggling to pop out an apple. It is a natural byproduct of being connected to the trunk.

Likewise, the fruit of the Spirit is the natural byproduct of being connected to the True Vine, Jesus Christ.

Works are what we do... fruit is what God does as we are connected to him. We can never "work fruit" in our lives.

[Jake for Jesus]

Nebula wrote:

What does love look like to you? By what standards could you tell love was being shown you? Others?

Are you concerned with actions, or the reason behind those actions? And if both, I need you to explain what your understanding of the actions are.

How do you love God? By . . . believing? Or by doing? If believing, how is love proven? If doing, by what actions then? How do you know your actions are love? What love is God looking for?

How do you love your neighbor? Feelings? Or doings? If feelings, how will your neighbor know you love him? If doing, by what doings will your neighbor know love has been given? By what standards do you follow?

My Response:

I am going to give my answer first in way in which may would will relate in some way to the relationship between faith and works if we agree that salvation is not by works, but solely by faith. We may naturally ask, What part, then do works play in the life of a Christian believer?

The clearest answer that I am able to find to this in the New Testament is in JAMES 2:14-15 here James says:

What does it profit, my brethen, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and desitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe --- and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see faith was working togather with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fullfiled which says, "Abraham belived God, and he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent then out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

In this passage James gives several examples to illustrate the connection between faith and works. He speaks of a Christian who sends away a fellow believer, hungry and naked, with empty words of comfort but without food or clothing.

He speaks also of the demons who believe in the existence of the one true God but find no comfort, only fear, in their belief.

He speaks also of the harlot Rabab in Jericho who received and protected Joshua's messengers.

However, it is in the last verse 26, that James sums up his teaching about tbe connection between the body and the spirit. He says, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith, provides the key to understanding how faith without works is dead also.

Thus reference to the spirit, in connection with faith, provides the key to understanding how faith operates in the life of a believer.

Now as for all these questions you asked, you ended with asking me by what standard do I follow?

This is the way I have chosen to answer your questions.

If what we call love doesn't take us beyond ourselves, it is not really love.

If we have the idea that love is characterized as cautious, wise, sensible, shrewd, and never taken to extremes, we have missed the true meaning. This may describe affection and it may bring us a warm feeling, but it is not true and accurate description of love.

Have you ever been driven to do something for God not because you felt that it was useful or your duty to do so, or that there was anything in it for you, but simply because you love Him?

Have you ever realized that you can give things to God that are of value to Him?

Or are you just sitting around day dreaming about the greatness of His redemption, while neglecting all the things you could be doing for Him?

I am not referrng to works which could be regarded as divine and miracles, but ordinary, simple human things --- things which would be evidence to God that you are totally surrendered to Him.

Have you created what Mary of Bethany created in the heart of the Lord Jesus?

In Mark 14:6, Jesus said about her "She has done a good work for Me."

There are times when it seems as if God watches to see if we will give Him even small gifts of surrender, just to show how genuine our love is for Him. To be surrendered to God is of more value than our personal holiness.

Concern over our personal holiness causes us to focus our eyes on ourselves, and we become overly concerned about the way we walk and talk and look out of fear of offending God, but perfect love casts out fear once we are surrendered to God.

We should quit asking ourselves, "Am I of any use?" and accept the truth that we really are not of much use to Him.

The issue is never of being of use, but of being of value to God Himself.

Once we are totally surrendered to God. He will walk through us all the time.

God loves us with a passionate love. Christians believe it doctrinally, but not always personally. Most Christians have never really believed that God loves them. Of course, God is interested in your service to Him, but the thing He is most interested in is you! When He begins to walk in us all the time. Only, then will we really know God's love for us, and only them will we know what it really means love others.

Edited September 25, 2005 by Jake for Jesus

[Fiosh]

arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OH NO, HERE WE GO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Catholics don your riot gear and pick up your shields.........here come the rocks!

[Fiosh]

I beg you please, say what YOU believe about this topic and refrain from telling me what I believe.

Fiosh, funny you should mention this. Because I was ready to tell you to tell me what YOU believe and not what the Catholic Church believes.

The Catholic Church believes and teaches that there is no salvation apart from the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

cute!

1. I mentioned it because it happens every time.

2. I will gladly tell you what I believe. But I'm reading thru the thread at the moment, so I will keep you in suspense.

Is it me, or do you feel like you're on acid when you read thru this one??????

[Fiosh]

I heard this statement recently, what do you think?

"We are saved by responding daily to the call of Christ in our life."

[Fiosh]

Hi Jake,

I have a suggestion. To be sure we are all understanding one another, could you define these terms?

faith

works

fruits

justification

righteousness

salvation

saved

It seems to me that at times you have taken a verse that addresses justification or righteousness and applied it to salvation. But perhaps I'm misunderstanding you.

Thanks,

Fiosh