Dispensational doomers, Pessimistic eschatology, And Dispensationalist Zionism has inflitrated Christianity and the church. Praying.

[Vine Abider]

On 10/27/2022 at 8:45 AM, believeinHim said:

Dispensational doomers, Pessimistic eschatology, And Dispensationalist Zionism has infiltrated Christianity and the church. I am praying for a brighter future for America, Israel, Russie, The UK, England, Europe, Australia, China, Japan, The Middle East, and everywhere else to lift up their eyes to God, The One True God, And turn from their wicked ways and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

The bright future has started with His incarnation, death & resurrection! And it will move to the next phase of brightness as the rest of the 7 seals are broken.  His kingdom being fully manifest on the earth will be that perfect day.  All the judgements to happen as depicted in Revelation, come out of His love and long suffering for mankind, not wanting any to perish.  But, in love, He must and will eradicate the cancer of sin and corruption.  To those aligning themselves with the "cancer," it won't be good.  However, to those who align with God and His Christ - it's glorious!

[Vine Abider]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But God delegates authority. Gravity is set in motion and faithfully exercises it's laws to keep order. And God institutes hierarchy. The Laws of aerodynamics are equally faithful, but eventually gravity prevails and the birds must rest from flying. God does not change His philosophy. Among angels and men there is authority and hierarchy. Because of the intricate and dynamic way these living creatures have been made, there is a very good chance that one or more will think that they have a better technique for government than God, or that God's appointed leaders must be replaced by them. The result is rebellion. Now, God, being ALL-mighty can do one of three things;
(i) He can do nothing, but this almost impossible because He is a God of order and will, sooner or later, intervene
(ii) He can annihilate His enemies. This is very effective but does not show His full potential. It robs Him of glory
(iii) He can stick to a strict judicially correct procedure and relieve His enemies from their posts and exact due vengeance. This is the most satisfying way. It shows His omnipotence, it shows His righteousness, it display patience and displays His sovereignty in every situation. It has one point that might be taken by the impatient to be negative. It takes TIME.

Without going into a lengthy treatise on the history of the earth's problems, it is clear that God's delegated authority has been perverted by certain of His creatures. These creatures were appointed by God to ensure order, but decided to create chaos instead. They could only do this because they had delegated authority. That is, God is supreme Commander of the universe, but, creatures having authority used it incorrectly. And because God can afford it, and to His glory, He recovers the situation over TIME.

 

I love this and well said!  I've been seeing this matter of delegated authority a bit over the last couple years.  It is very difficult to understand God's governmental dealings unless this is understood. He gave it to us, we blew it, and Christ came to restore.  So what's your take on Revelation 12, where a major shift in government appears to be happening?

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

I love this and well said!  I've been seeing this matter of delegated authority a bit over the last couple years.  It is very difficult to understand God's governmental dealings unless this is understood. He gave it to us, we blew it, and Christ came to restore.  So what's your take on Revelation 12, where a major shift in government appears to be happening?

Hi brother. Are you sitting down? My understanding of Revelation 12 is not popular. But I will back it up. You decide.

In Revelation 12 we have six major players; (i) The Dragon, (ii) The Woman, (iii) Michael, (iv) those who overcame, (v) those who keep the commandments of God, and (vi) those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The Dragon is not difficult. He is a serpent that has grown big. He is the serpent of Eden who has been eating dust for 6,000 years. The dust is men who succumb to his will (Gen.3:14, 1st Pet.5:8). The Dragon is an angel who is heavenly. But his time in heaven is over. He is displaced by "those who Overcame", but the eviction is done by another military angel - Michael, the angel of Israel. He is given a short time on earth and then consigned to the "pit" (Isa.14:15)

The Woman is not difficult to fathom, but many students' minds are made up. Because of only one point of similarity to Joseph's dream, the peg her as Israel. I disagree. I will not give the full argument to shorten my answer. Three points should suffice. (i) The woman is in heaven. Israel are earthly and never are in, or go to, heaven. (ii) Israel comes from four Women, not one. (iii) Israel did not bring forth "those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ". The Holy Spirit did. The single similarity to Joseph's dream is that God's people on earth are numbered as TWELVE. So Who is the Woman?

The Woman has THREE SEEDS. (i) Overcomers (note the plural in verse 11), (ii) those who keep God's commandments, and (iii) those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ. In Revelation 2 and 3 "Overcomers" are members of the Churches - Christians. And the "Overcomers" will rule the Nations with a rod of iron in Rev.2:27. "Those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ" must be Christians. In the whole Old Testament, and almost exclusively in the New, "the commandments of God" refer to the Law of Moses. Added to this, God, in Deuteronomy 30:1-5 set forth the condition for Israel's recovery - to keep the Law (that Moses was teaching that day). Those "who keep the commandments of God can only be the REMNANT of Israel predicted in Romans 9 and 11, who fulfill Deuteronomy 30:1-5 - Israelites.

Now, we have a Woman who brings forth Christians who Overcome, and Christians who must flee to a wilderness. She also brings forth Israelites who turn back to the Law. This constellation appears in scripture THREE times. (i) The Olive Tree of Romans 11 where there is a Tree with both Christian and Jew grafted in. (ii) The New Jerusalem which has Walls of Christians and Gates of Israelites. (iii) In the whole book of Galatians, the Holy Spirit CONTRASTS Christian and Jew. But in Chapter 4 He makes an astounding statement. In verse 16 these TWO CONTRASTING peoples HAVE THE SAME MOTHER - New Jerusalem. "She is mother of US ALL!" Who is the "All"? Jerusalem below AND Jerusalem above! Hagar and Sarah! The Covenant of Promise and the Covenant of Law. The Woman of Revelation 12 must be New Jerusalem. This makes her heavenly, but on earth. this makes her offspring BOTH Jew and Christian.

There are only two entities who will rule the Nations with a rod of iron - (i) Jesus (Rev.19:15) and (ii) the Overcomers of the Church (Rev.2:27). When our Lord was Raptured to heaven He did not displace the Dragon. In Ephesians, written over 30 years later, Satan is called the "Prince of the power of the air". Added to this, Revelation 12 records events that must "be hereafter" to 96 AD when John wrote it. Satan is only displaced at the end of the age by those who joined Christ to OVERCOME him. The Overcomers are plural. "They Overcame ... "! And the way they overcame was not military. It was morally. Finally, they used the blood of Jesus. Jesus did not need His blood for Himself. It was for sinning men. The Man-Child is the Overcomers among believers.

There are four scriptures which show those counted worthy to escape the Great Tribulation by rapture. Matthew 24:40-44, Luke 21:35-36, Philippians 3:10-14 and Revelation 3:10. And there are four scriptures which plainly show that some, or most, of Christians living at the time of Christ's coming, will be left on earth. The same Matthew 24:40-44, Revelation 7:9-17, Revelation 13:7 and Revelation 18.4. That is, while the Man-child - the Overcomers are raptured to the air, the bulk of Christians must go through the Great Tribulation because they are the OVERCOME not the Overcomers (Rev.13:7). It is they who "HAVE the testimony of Jesus Christ" but must flee to a wilderness.

The REMNANT of Israel are those sealed in Chapter 7:1-8. they also flee to a symbolic wilderness and survive the Great Tribulation because "they keep the commandments of God". Bible scholars have recognized that Israel will be restored. But they are puzzled because there is no record of Israel ever believing in Jesus. Romans 11 says they remain blind and hardened UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles. There is no scripture about Israel ever believing in Jesus until He is seen in the clouds. Israel are a restored because of God's Covenant and because of Jesus Who died for the "sin" and "sins" of the WORLD (Jn.1.29, 1st Jn.2:2). Deuteronomy 30:1-5 is the promise of God to restore them. Nowhere are Israel promised restoration because they believed in Jesus.

Revelation Chapter 12 marks a big shift in government - as you maintain. Heaven is divested of the Dragon. The earth reels under oppression because it suffers BOTH the wrath of God and the wrath of the Dragon. Therefore "WOE"! The Man-Child is decided who will rule the earth with Christ after Armageddon. They defeated Christians are left to "ripen" on earth and are overcome by the Beast (Rev.13:7). The REMNANT of Israel do not believe but are sealed and survive the Great Tribulation (Dan.12:1-2).

I judge that you have much to consider. God bless

[Vine Abider]

44 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Hi brother. Are you sitting down? My understanding of Revelation 12 is not popular. But I will back it up. You decide.

In Revelation 12 we have six major players; (i) The Dragon, (ii) The Woman, (iii) Michael, (iv) those who overcame, (v) those who keep the commandments of God, and (vi) those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The Dragon is not difficult. He is a serpent that has grown big. He is the serpent of Eden who has been eating dust for 6,000 years. The dust is men who succumb to his will (Gen.3:14, 1st Pet.5:8). The Dragon is an angel who is heavenly. But his time in heaven is over. He is displaced by "those who Overcame", but the eviction is done by another military angel - Michael, the angel of Israel. He is given a short time on earth and then consigned to the "pit" (Isa.14:15)

The Woman is not difficult to fathom, but many students' minds are made up. Because of only one point of similarity to Joseph's dream, the peg her as Israel. I disagree. I will not give the full argument to shorten my answer. Three points should suffice. (i) The woman is in heaven. Israel are earthly and never are in, or go to, heaven. (ii) Israel comes from four Women, not one. (iii) Israel did not bring forth "those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ". The Holy Spirit did. The single similarity to Joseph's dream is that God's people on earth are numbered as TWELVE. So Who is the Woman?

The Woman has THREE SEEDS. (i) Overcomers (note the plural in verse 11), (ii) those who keep God's commandments, and (iii) those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ. In Revelation 2 and 3 "Overcomers" are members of the Churches - Christians. And the "Overcomers" will rule the Nations with a rod of iron in Rev.2:27. "Those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ" must be Christians. In the whole Old Testament, and almost exclusively in the New, "the commandments of God" refer to the Law of Moses. Added to this, God, in Deuteronomy 30:1-5 set forth the condition for Israel's recovery - to keep the Law (that Moses was teaching that day). Those "who keep the commandments of God can only be the REMNANT of Israel predicted in Romans 9 and 11, who fulfill Deuteronomy 30:1-5 - Israelites.

Now, we have a Woman who brings forth Christians who Overcome, and Christians who must flee to a wilderness. She also brings forth Israelites who turn back to the Law. This constellation appears in scripture THREE times. (i) The Olive Tree of Romans 11 where there is a Tree with both Christian and Jew grafted in. (ii) The New Jerusalem which has Walls of Christians and Gates of Israelites. (iii) In the whole book of Galatians, the Holy Spirit CONTRASTS Christian and Jew. But in Chapter 4 He makes an astounding statement. In verse 16 these TWO CONTRASTING peoples HAVE THE SAME MOTHER - New Jerusalem. "She is mother of US ALL!" Who is the "All"? Jerusalem below AND Jerusalem above! Hagar and Sarah! The Covenant of Promise and the Covenant of Law. The Woman of Revelation 12 must be New Jerusalem. This makes her heavenly, but on earth. this makes her offspring BOTH Jew and Christian.

There are only two entities who will rule the Nations with a rod of iron - (i) Jesus (Rev.19:15) and (ii) the Overcomers of the Church (Rev.2:27). When our Lord was Raptured to heaven He did not displace the Dragon. In Ephesians, written over 30 years later, Satan is called the "Prince of the power of the air". Added to this, Revelation 12 records events that must "be hereafter" to 96 AD when John wrote it. Satan is only displaced at the end of the age by those who joined Christ to OVERCOME him. The Overcomers are plural. "They Overcame ... "! And the way they overcame was not military. It was morally. Finally, they used the blood of Jesus. Jesus did not need His blood for Himself. It was for sinning men. The Man-Child is the Overcomers among believers.

There are four scriptures which show those counted worthy to escape the Great Tribulation by rapture. Matthew 24:40-44, Luke 21:35-36, Philippians 3:10-14 and Revelation 3:10. And there are four scriptures which plainly show that some, or most, of Christians living at the time of Christ's coming, will be left on earth. The same Matthew 24:40-44, Revelation 7:9-17, Revelation 13:7 and Revelation 18.4. That is, while the Man-child - the Overcomers are raptured to the air, the bulk of Christians must go through the Great Tribulation because they are the OVERCOME not the Overcomers (Rev.13:7). It is they who "HAVE the testimony of Jesus Christ" but must flee to a wilderness.

The REMNANT of Israel are those sealed in Chapter 7:1-8. they also flee to a symbolic wilderness and survive the Great Tribulation because "they keep the commandments of God". Bible scholars have recognized that Israel will be restored. But they are puzzled because there is no record of Israel ever believing in Jesus. Romans 11 says they remain blind and hardened UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles. There is no scripture about Israel ever believing in Jesus until He is seen in the clouds. Israel are a restored because of God's Covenant and because of Jesus Who died for the "sin" and "sins" of the WORLD (Jn.1.29, 1st Jn.2:2). Deuteronomy 30:1-5 is the promise of God to restore them. Nowhere are Israel promised restoration because they believed in Jesus.

Revelation Chapter 12 marks a big shift in government - as you maintain. Heaven is divested of the Dragon. The earth reels under oppression because it suffers BOTH the wrath of God and the wrath of the Dragon. Therefore "WOE"! The Man-Child is decided who will rule the earth with Christ after Armageddon. They defeated Christians are left to "ripen" on earth and are overcome by the Beast (Rev.13:7). The REMNANT of Israel do not believe but are sealed and survive the Great Tribulation (Dan.12:1-2).

I judge that you have much to consider. God bless

Thanks you for that MOST thoughtful reply and I agree overall 95%!  And the remaining 5% is just that I want to take a closer look at what you said about the woman having "three seeds."  I was coming to the same conclusion overall, and had been wondering some about the identity of the woman.  Some I meet with have said the woman comprises all of God's people, both Israel and the ekklesia, and I think what you said aligns with this.  And the "male child" is certainly not Jesus Himself (although it could be said it is Christ in His members/overcomers), for several obvious reasons.

So thanks again and I'm looking forward to considering these "three seeds" more . . . this is really exciting stuff!

(and any ideas on the first fruits of chapter 14?  FYI - I started a topic over on eschatology related to that)

Edited October 29, 2022 by Vine Abider

[AdHoc]

13 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

Thanks you for that MOST thoughtful reply and I agree overall 95%!  And the remaining 5% is just that I want to take a closer look at what you said about the woman having "three seeds."  I was coming to the same conclusion overall, and had been wondering some about the identity of the woman.  Some I meet with have said the woman comprises all of God's people, both Israel and the ekklesia, and I think what you said aligns with this.  And the "male child" is certainly not Jesus Himself (although it could be said it is Christ in His members/overcomers), for several obvious reasons.

So thanks again and I'm looking forward to considering these "three seeds" more . . . this is really exciting stuff!

(and any ideas on the first fruits of chapter 14?  FYI - I started a topic over on eschatology related to that)

Wow. I am encouraged.

In Matthew 13 our Lord Jesus said that the end of the age was a harvest (v.39). This implies being ripe or not. But there is a bigger issue than that. God, Lord of the harvest, lays claim to the first and best tenth - the so-called firstfruits. So, when the time comes to harvest the Church the Lord will send His angels to gather the Wheat. To know the things of God, we must study the harvest in the Bible and in nature (Rom.1:20). In Nature, and in Leviticus 23 every harvest has THREE gatherings - (i) the firstfruits or first-ripe. They go into the farmers HOUSE, (ii) the general harvest, which goes into the BARN, and (iii) the Gleaning which are left for the underprivileged.

The 144,000 of Revelation 14 are the Overcomers of the Church. Here are my reasons.

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God. (Re 14:1–5)

1. The scene is in heaven. The throne is there, the 24 elders and the four creatures as in Chapter 4
2. The number 144 is symbolic. It is made of 12 X 12 the number of God's People.
3. 12,000 is the number of New Jerusalem and is called the number of an angel. A man in resurrection is "like" an angel*
4. These were redeemed "from the earth". Rapture is only for the Church
5. They are not defiled with women. They are Virgins - Christians (2nd Cor.11:2)
6. They sang a new song that only they knew
7. They follow the Lamb everywhere. Not all Christians do this
8. They are redeemed from among men. Only Christians are redeemed.
9. They are faultless and have no words of guile while Israel and the Nations curse Christ
10. They are Firstfruits - the first-ripe of a harvest.

They differ from the 144,000 of Chapter 7 in the following;

1. The 144,000 in Chapter 7 are from Israel
2. Those of 7 are on earth
3. Those of 7 have the Tribes plainly mentioned (I cannot tell why Dan is missing)
4. Those of 7 are "Sealed" not redeemed
5. Those of 7 are sealed so that the Great Tribulation does not kill them (9:4)

Those of Chapter are the Jewish REMNANT predicted in Romans 9 and 11. They are those who "keep the commandments of God" in Chapter 12. They are likely to be those of Chapter 11 "who gave glory to God" in the face of the Beast.

* It is noteworthy that God's House - Bethel, in John Chapter 1 and Genesis 28 is built with men as angels (Lk.20:36)

[Vine Abider]

On 10/29/2022 at 5:00 PM, AdHoc said:

Wow. I am encouraged.

In Matthew 13 our Lord Jesus said that the end of the age was a harvest (v.39). This implies being ripe or not. But there is a bigger issue than that. God, Lord of the harvest, lays claim to the first and best tenth - the so-called firstfruits. So, when the time comes to harvest the Church the Lord will send His angels to gather the Wheat. To know the things of God, we must study the harvest in the Bible and in nature (Rom.1:20). In Nature, and in Leviticus 23 every harvest has THREE gatherings - (i) the firstfruits or first-ripe. They go into the farmers HOUSE, (ii) the general harvest, which goes into the BARN, and (iii) the Gleaning which are left for the underprivileged.

The 144,000 of Revelation 14 are the Overcomers of the Church. Here are my reasons.

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God. (Re 14:1–5)

1. The scene is in heaven. The throne is there, the 24 elders and the four creatures as in Chapter 4
2. The number 144 is symbolic. It is made of 12 X 12 the number of God's People.
3. 12,000 is the number of New Jerusalem and is called the number of an angel. A man in resurrection is "like" an angel*
4. These were redeemed "from the earth". Rapture is only for the Church
5. They are not defiled with women. They are Virgins - Christians (2nd Cor.11:2)
6. They sang a new song that only they knew
7. They follow the Lamb everywhere. Not all Christians do this
8. They are redeemed from among men. Only Christians are redeemed.
9. They are faultless and have no words of guile while Israel and the Nations curse Christ
10. They are Firstfruits - the first-ripe of a harvest.

They differ from the 144,000 of Chapter 7 in the following;

1. The 144,000 in Chapter 7 are from Israel
2. Those of 7 are on earth
3. Those of 7 have the Tribes plainly mentioned (I cannot tell why Dan is missing)
4. Those of 7 are "Sealed" not redeemed
5. Those of 7 are sealed so that the Great Tribulation does not kill them (9:4)

Those of Chapter are the Jewish REMNANT predicted in Romans 9 and 11. They are those who "keep the commandments of God" in Chapter 12. They are likely to be those of Chapter 11 "who gave glory to God" in the face of the Beast.

* It is noteworthy that God's House - Bethel, in John Chapter 1 and Genesis 28 is built with men as angels (Lk.20:36)

I too have been seeing a lot of similarities between the first fruits (144,000) in Rev 14 and the virgins and the overcomers from the 7 churches at the beginning of Revelation. And I agree that these are different than the 144,000 in chapter 7, which clearly says these ones are from the 12 Jewish tribes (you point out other aspects of these ones showing they are different from Rev 14 ones).

The 10 wise and foolish virgins in Matt 25 is a good picture.  All were virgins, with lamps, which had some measure of oil (the foolish ones didn't have enough), and all heard the cry and went forth to meet the Bridegroom.  Therefore, clearly these are all believers - that is apparent.  But 5 were foolish and didn't carry enough oil in their vessels, so they were shut out of the wedding feast.  It's interesting to compare this to Philadelphia's letter where the Lord tells them He has placed before them an open door - however, the door in Laodicea is shut (He's outside knocking).

As we're discussing on another thread (multiple raptures), there are conditions placed for the believer, before their entrance into the reward is given.

Do you think the 144,000 number is literal?  I tend to think the ones in Rev 7 are and the ones in 14 are not, but have no real basis for saying this.

BTW: Concerning Dan being missing from list of the Jewish tribes in Rev 7 I found this: https://versebyverseministry.org/bible-answers/why-is-the-tribe-of-dan-missing-in-revelation-7

[AdHoc]

31 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

I too have been seeing a lot of similarities between the first fruits (144,000) in Rev 14 and the virgins and the overcomers from the 7 churches at the beginning of Revelation. And I agree that these are different than the 144,000 in chapter 7, which clearly says these ones are from the 12 Jewish tribes (you point out other aspects of these ones showing they are different from Rev 14 ones).

The 10 wise and foolish virgins in Matt 25 is a good picture.  All were virgins, with lamps, which had some measure of oil (the foolish ones didn't have enough), and all heard the cry and went forth to meet the Bridegroom.  Therefore, clearly these are all believers - that is apparent.  But 5 were foolish and didn't carry enough oil in their vessels, so they were shut out of the wedding feast.  It's interesting to compare this to Philadelphia's letter where the Lord tells them He has placed before them an open door - however, the door in Laodicea is shut (He's outside knocking).

As we're discussing on another thread (multiple raptures), there are conditions placed for the believer, before their entrance into the reward is given.

Do you think the 144,000 number is literal?  I tend to think the ones in Rev 7 are and the ones in 14 are not, but have no real basis for saying this.

BTW: Concerning Dan being missing from list of the Jewish tribes in Rev 7 I found this: https://versebyverseministry.org/bible-answers/why-is-the-tribe-of-dan-missing-in-revelation-7

I believe the 144,000 to be symbolic in both cases. Revelation 1:1 says that our Lord would inform His servants by "signs". In the Old Testament God's People were always numbered exactly (e.g. Numbers Chapter 1). Having 12,000 per Tribe in every case makes it possible but unlikely. But my strongest reason (to me) is that BOTH these companies of people are REMNANTS. God always worked with a Remnant starting with Noah. I believe that in BOTH cases, Israel and the Church, God is telling us through that number that they are REPRESENTATIVE. 12 is the number of God's People, and 12,000 is the number of New Jerusalem. Up until New Jerusalem God's people are not perfected, so He uses a Remnant. But the Remnant stands for the whole.

Thanks for the link. I'll investigate. Dan missing is actually another proof that God is using a Remnant. When Israel was One, they were called Israel. After Jeraboam it was Israel and Judah. Then both went into captivity and they were Lo-ammi - you are NOT my people. But when the 48,000 or so from Judah and Benjamin returned to build the second Temple, God called them Israel. Making this even more stark is that God is never mentioned in Esther - the remainder of about 2 million, but who didn't care for God's House. In Revelation 7:4 it is "ALL the Tribes of Israel ...". But Dan is missing. The "ALL" must then show it to be representative.

[believeinHim]

On 10/29/2022 at 3:26 PM, AdHoc said:

 "She is mother of US ALL!" Who is the "All"? Jerusalem below AND Jerusalem above! Hagar and Sarah!

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[believeinHim]

On 10/29/2022 at 3:26 PM, AdHoc said:

"She is mother of US ALL!" Who is the "All"? Jerusalem below AND Jerusalem above! Hagar and Sarah!

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 

[AdHoc]

On 11/6/2022 at 4:18 PM, believeinHim said:

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 

 

On 11/8/2022 at 3:08 PM, believeinHim said:

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The context of this statement was the CONTRASTING by Paul, of Israel and the Church. Then suddenly, in the middle of contrasting, Paul declares a common mother. "US ALL" is Israelite and Believer.

This is remarkable because Paul was showing how UN-common they are. Israel hate Jesus. The Church loves Him. Israel deny Jesus, the Church confesses Him. Israel persecute the Church. the Church must bare it. At present, it would seem that Israel and the Church are opposites. But God's plan is with Abraham's SEED. And Abraham has THREE Seeds; (i) Jesus, (ii) seed as the sand of the seashore, and (iii) seed as the stars of heaven. Thus, New Jerusalem INCORPORATED Jesus, Israel and the Church. They may be enemies now, but in God's plan each has its place. This does not mean that they mingle. Each has a set task.

Thus, in Galatians, though we are different and take a different way, we have a common mother - Jerusalem  above. In Romans 11 we have an Olive Tree. A Tree in Parable is a king and his kingdom (Judg.9, Dan.4, Ezek.31). The Root is holy. Only Jesus is holy. Israel are the natural branches and the Church is the wild branches. Israel are temporarily cut off. Later, they re grafted in again. In Revelation 12 we have the church divided into Overcomer and those in a wilderness. We also have a Remnant of Israel in the same wilderness. They all have the same MOTHER - the Woman in heaven. In New Jerusalem we have Walls and Gates. Same City, same God, same plan, but two entirely different entities.

I remember back those years when I was first faced with this knowledge. I went in circles for a long time. Take your time.