Marathoner Posted February 9, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 73 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,486 Content Per Day: 7.13 Reputation: 13,630 Days Won: 99 Joined: 05/24/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted February 9, 2023 (edited) I've remained silent since I already shared my understanding regarding the Bride according to the testimony of scripture, and how the Lord's relationship with His people is symbolically expressed as marriage both in the Hebrew scriptures and the New Testament. As in all things, that which was veiled in days of old --- Moses, who veiled his face from the Israelites --- is revealed in Jesus Christ, God with us. I do not impose exotic divisions upon the scriptural narrative. It's clear that God's people, who are called Israel, are known in these last days as the Church, and so Israel and the Church are one and the same in the sight of the Lord. We disagree on this matter, @Marilyn C, for a discussion of branches is indeed crucial to the understanding that Hebrews and Gentiles alike are part of the same root. Being partakers of the same root, imposing divisions which don't exist in scripture is something we ought to avoid. Can a house divided stand? No. It will fall. Much like how prophetic scripture is rich in both symbolism and metaphor, the Bride is accordingly representative of such things. God rejoices in His people as the bridegroom rejoices in his bride; and the Church, being the union of Hebrews and Gentiles in the same root, is the unveiling of Israel in Jesus Christ during these last days. As I shared previously, this was foretold by the prophets. I'm not dispensational where theology is concerned. Our relationship with the Lord is like the relationship of a wife with her husband. The apostle explains in plain language what was veiled in Moses. Edited February 9, 2023 by Marathoner Typo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marathoner Posted February 9, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 73 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,486 Content Per Day: 7.13 Reputation: 13,630 Days Won: 99 Joined: 05/24/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted February 9, 2023 4 hours ago, 1to3 said: Hello @Marilyn C Ok, so is Israel symbolic or literal? Who is Israel @Marilyn C? In the OT God wrestled with Jacob and at the end of the wrestling match God Named Jacob= Israel because Jacob finally surrendered to God and was from that time onwards. transformed , a New man faithful to God. Before that wrestling match with God, Jacob as his name infers was: supplanter,” which is often interpreted as someone who seizes, circumvents, or usurps. He was born in a struggle inside Rebecca's womb with his twin Esau, which pretty much defined how his life of 140 plus years would play out. The name Jacob means "Deceiver" and what is unveiled in Genesis is the life of Jacob and his family filled with issues of deceit and deception, until God wrestled with Jacob and spititualy transformed Jacob into a newman=Israel Embedded within it is a description of Jacobs encounter with an unknown assailant at the ford of the Jabbok (Genesis 32: 22-32). The author uses the tradition of a wrestling match between the hero and his adversary= (The Lord and Jacob) to create a spiritually transforming experience which results in the birth of a new man spititualy and then a nation. Before that Jacob had a dream: Genesis 28:15 God says to Jacob: I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go, and I will bring you back to this land. I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you.” New King James Version Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have spoken to you.” Jacob's Ladder Book of Genesis (chapter 28). …14Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and east and north and south. All the families of the earth will be blessed through you and your offspring. 15Look, I am with you, and I will watch over you wherever you go, and I will bring you back to this land. For I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you.” 16When Jacob woke up, he thought, “Surely the LORD is in this place, and I was unaware of it. So Jacobs name was changed to Israel and then the name of a nation was also called Israel. Because Jacob was faithful, the Lord gave him the special name of Israel, which means “one who prevails with God” or “let God prevail” (Bible Dictionary, “Israel,” 708). Jacob had twelve sons. These sons and their families became known as the twelve tribes of Israel, or Israelites (see Genesis 49:28). Why of the 12 tribes is the tribe of Dan missing from the 144,000 in Revelation ? Where is the lost tribe of Dan? Dan is situated in the area known as the Galilee Panhandle, which is a part of Upper Galilee. Religion of the Dan is based on traditional animist beliefs and practices. The Dan acknowledge a creator God, Zlan, but believe that no one can reach or see him, so instead, they worship du, a spiritual power that is more accessible and resides in every human being. The region they were trying to settle included the area as far north as Joppa and extending south into the Shephelah in the area of Timnah; as a result, the modern state of Israel, as well as some Zionists, refer to the region as Gush Dan (the Dan area). Is the land known as the Galilee Panhandle, which is a part of Upper Galilee considered today as part if Israel?. What Land did God say to Jacob that he would return to? In Genesis 28, Jacob had a very important spiritual experience at a place he named Bethel. At that time, the Lord promised to be with Jacob so that he could return and worship the Lord again in his homeland. What was the name of the homeland of Jacob?=his homeland of Canaan,the Promised Land, which is today known as Israel. What is considered a nation in the Bible? In the biblical narrative, Gentile nations were defined around family or blood, the nation of Israel was defined around covenant. Membership in Israel, with few exceptions (Deuteronomy 23.3), was a biologically open nation in which Gentiles, with receipt of the covenant sign, would become as “natives of the land.” In the NT we see by Pauls writing that we gentiles through Christ Jesus have been grafted in the same olive branch as the Jews. Romans 11:17Romans 11:17, KJV: And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Before going to the next important understanding, I hope the above explains things clearly from what the OT and NT mean by who Israel is. Do you dispute @Marilyn C anything I have written here about who Israel is and where the land that God said to Jacob that he would return to: ie, the land Canaan and where the land of Cannan is located? =Israel ----------------------------------------- Now what what does the New Jerusalem represent? Heaven is represented as both a city and a bride, coming down out of God's heavenly domain and landing on earth, much like the staircase Jacob saw in his dream. John called the city-bride a “new Jerusalem.” It was so marvelous that he could only describe it regarding brilliant stones. Revelation 21 :: NIV. Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband In this way, the New Jerusalem represents to Christians the final and everlasting reconciliation of God and his chosen people, "the end of the Christian pilgrimage." As such, the New Jerusalem is a conception of Heaven, who is the bride? Jerusalem or the people of God or both? In Revelation 21, an angel shows John the “bride” and what he sees is the New Jerusalem coming down. Is that Jesus' bride? the church or the saints? Notice that the description of the New Jerusalem as the Bride of the Lamb is followed by descriptions of the saints dwelling in the city, which tells us that this is the future home for the saints to dwell with the Father and Christ. Therefore, the wife of The Lamb og God (i.e., Israel in the Old Testament) and the bride of Christ (i.e., the Church in the New Testament) will both reside in this place together as one, thus becoming the Bride of the Lamb. So Revelation 21-22 refers to the New Jerusalem city as the Bride of the Lamb because it is the place that both Israel and the Church dwell with God in perfect harmony. In that sense, the city personifies the people in the same way that the Old Testament uses Jerusalem to personify Israel or Sodom to personify the ungodly. Well done, my friend. I liken the relationship between Israel and the Church to the fulfillment of prophecy: the Lord shall call other sheep into the fold who, during that time when the prophet declared the words of the Lord to the people, were foreigners to the Hebrews. Gentiles. Ah, but we know this was declared in ancient times when the Lord promised to Abraham (who was formerly Abram) that He would make a great nation from him, and that his descendants would be as numerous as stars in the sky. So, the Lord and His apostles reveal the adoption as sons through faith in Jesus Christ. By faith, we are the seed of Abraham and thus heirs to the promise. Not by natural birth but rather, by the birth from above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted February 9, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 272 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,314 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,562 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted February 9, 2023 On 1/27/2023 at 6:53 AM, Vine Abider said: I read something in a devotional last week that I've been wanting to post and I've done that below. After I read it, I also thought of a few verses (in blue) that seem to support the idea that the church really is Christ. Of course, when we believers look at each other, we usually see all kinds of things less heavenly . . . But what would the body be if the one Spirit wasn't in us all? We would be just another organization or collection, not one organic body. What do you think saints? "Unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain." John 12:24 "But when God . . . was pleased o reveal His Son in me." Galatians 1:15-16 "God put everything under His feet and made Him head over everything for the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all." Ephesians 1:22-23 ****************************************************** "For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ." 1 CORINTHIANS 12:12 Not only is Christ the Christian life, but He is also the reality of the church life. Apart from Him there is no church. We must understand that the practice of the church issues from the centrality of Christ. Christ is our relationship with one another (Col. 3:11). Because He is in all of us, we are related to each other in Him. We do not need to "join" the church. We do not sign up to become members of the church. The church comes into our spirit when we receive Christ. The church is in all of us because the church is Christ. We recognize Christ! When we recognize Christ, we recognize the church! The reality of the church is a Person. It is not a doctrine. It is not a way. It is not a man. It is Christ Himself. So wherever Christ is, there is the church. The best we can do is simply to see it, acknowledge it, receive one another, and say "Amen." We receive one another because we have all been received by God (Rom. 14:3). We have been redeemed by the same blood. We have the same one Father (Eph. 4:6). There is only one "Abba," one Father, and He is in all of us (Rom. 8:15; Gal. 4:6). So what do we do? We say, "We are in the same family!" This is the church. It is so simple. There is something already existing between us. God put it into us. It is called the oneness of the Spirit (Eph. 4:3). We learn to recognize this oneness of the Spirit between us and to keep it in our relationships. This oneness is so precious because it is made up of the oneness of the Father and the Son. The oneness between the Father and the Son is now embodied in the Spirit. Thus, through Christ as the life-giving Spirit entering into us, we have been admitted into Their oneness! Because of Christ, Their oneness has now become our oneness. This is the church. Hi VA, reading your OP again may I ask, as `Christ is the Church, ` is He therefore the Bride? And BTW I suspect when men think of the term `bride,` they may think of their bride. However, do you realise that it means that YOU are a `bride? ` Why do you want to marry Jesus? And why does Jesus want to marry millions of men and women? As I was not taught this view it truly amazes me that men can think it. I did ask a friend (who has now changed his mind) why did he think that he was the bride. He said, `actually I never thought about it. ` Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted February 9, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,948 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,787 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted February 9, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Marathoner said: Well done, my friend. I liken the relationship between Israel and the Church to the fulfillment of prophecy: the Lord shall call other sheep into the fold who, during that time when the prophet declared the words of the Lord to the people, were foreigners to the Hebrews. Gentiles. Ah, but we know this was declared in ancient times when the Lord promised to Abraham (who was formerly Abram) that He would make a great nation from him, and that his descendants would be as numerous as stars in the sky. So, the Lord and His apostles reveal the adoption as sons through faith in Jesus Christ. By faith, we are the seed of Abraham and thus heirs to the promise. Not by natural birth but rather, by the birth from above. We have nothing to do with Abraham...the Gospel of Jesus preached to the Nations (The former Gentiles) has nothing to do with Abraham... God reconciled the world unto himself through the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross or through the death of his Son Jesus on the Cross... This is the message that show that the chosen and the rejected offsprings of Abraham are also reconciled to God by the same way...It is to show the biggining of something new and EVERLASTING... This is to show that the whole world is included in the claim that "God reconciled the world unto himself in the death of his Son Jesus Christ... Everything that had to be reconciled has been reconciled to God through the death of Jesus Christ... So there is no need for God to sent someone else to reconciled something that was left unreconciled... Everyone had been reconciled that needed to be reconciled to God, even all the people who had died before Jesus Christ...all the people who had died unreconciled because there was not plan in place to make that possible... Only through faith in Jesus Christ is the way to make that possible...God open the way to him for man through faith in his Son Jesus Christ. It had to be his Son there was not possible in any other way...Jesus Christ had to be the first one and we follow... Not that we are the first to follow (speaking of the living at the time of Jesus Christ death ) because the first ones to be included in Jesus were Abraham and the dead in Abraham to Issac and to Jacob and all the household of Jacob...whom through him the Lord started something new and he let us know by changing his name from Jacob to Israel...when he included all his children in the promise to Abraham that he will ONLY be their GOD and they will be his only people... Reminder: we are talking about Abraham and the dead in Abraham... The first ones to be included in Jesus Christ it was Abraham and all the people who were with him who had died in Abraham... They were the first to be included in Jesus Christ... As the Scripture or Jesus had said all that God had he has given them to Jesus Christ so Jesus can be all in all... The next to be included in Jesus Christ are from the rest of the world who had died before Jesus Christ...the key word is from the rest of the dead of the world...those who believe in Jesus Christ during those three days when the heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ and believed... No one can deny that...Jesus won't go down there to preached the Gospel and he will not sent any of his disciples to go down there to preach the Gospel... Everyone has the right to be Judged according to their faith in Jesus Christ...and this is because Jesus Christ has died for all including them and to be Judge according to the Gospel they must be given the chance to hear the Gospel first..and to be given or have the opportunity to believe... No one can put forth a sound argument that includes that their God given right to hear the Gospel and have the chance to be included in Jesus was forfeited. Edited February 9, 2023 by Your closest friendnt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marathoner Posted February 10, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 73 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,486 Content Per Day: 7.13 Reputation: 13,630 Days Won: 99 Joined: 05/24/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted February 10, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said: We have nothing to do with Abraham...the Gospel of Jesus preached to the Nations (The former Gentiles) has nothing to do with Abraham... God reconciled the world unto himself through the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross or through the death of his Son Jesus on the Cross... This is the message that show that the chosen and the rejected offsprings of Abraham are also reconciled to God by the same way...It is to show the biggining of something new and EVERLASTING... This is to show that the whole world is included in the claim that "God reconciled the world unto himself in the death of his Son Jesus Christ... Everything that had to be reconciled has been reconciled to God through the death of Jesus Christ... So there is no need for God to sent someone else to reconciled something that was left unreconciled... Everyone had been reconciled that needed to be reconciled to God, even all the people who had died before Jesus Christ...all the people who had died unreconciled because there was not plan in place to make that possible... Only through faith in Jesus Christ is the way to make that possible...God open the way to him for man through faith in his Son Jesus Christ. It had to be his Son there was not possible in any other way...Jesus Christ had to be the first one and we follow... Not that we are the first to follow (speaking of the living at the time of Jesus Christ death ) because the first ones to be included in Jesus were Abraham and the dead in Abraham to Issac and to Jacob and all the household of Jacob...whom through him the Lord started something new and he let us know by changing his name from Jacob to Israel...when he included all his children in the promise to Abraham that he will ONLY be their GOD and they will be his only people... Reminder: we are talking about Abraham and the dead in Abraham... The first ones to be included in Jesus Christ it was Abraham and all the people who were with him who had died in Abraham... They were the first to be included in Jesus Christ... As the Scripture or Jesus had said all that God had he has given them to Jesus Christ so Jesus can be all in all... The next to be included in Jesus Christ are from the rest of the world who had died before Jesus Christ...the key word is from the rest of the dead of the world...those who believe in Jesus Christ during those three days when the heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ and believed... No one can deny that...Jesus won't go down there to preached the Gospel and he will not sent any of his disciples to go down there to preach the Gospel... Everyone has the right to be Judged according to their faith in Jesus Christ...and this is because Jesus Christ has died for all including them and to be Judge according to the Gospel they must be given the chance to hear the Gospel first..and to be given or have the opportunity to believe... No one can put forth a sound argument that includes that their God given right to hear the Gospel and have the chance to be included in Jesus was forfeited. The apostle of Jesus Christ tells us in Galatians 3:29, "And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." We do indeed have something to do with Abraham, my friend. Edited February 10, 2023 by Marathoner Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted February 10, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,948 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,787 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted February 10, 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Marathoner said: The apostle of Jesus Christ tells us in Galatians 3:29, "And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." We do indeed have something to do with Abraham, my friend. I am wondering what he meant and why did he say that... What did he consider to say that....we must get to the bottom of it. Edited February 10, 2023 by Your closest friendnt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marathoner Posted February 10, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 73 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,486 Content Per Day: 7.13 Reputation: 13,630 Days Won: 99 Joined: 05/24/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted February 10, 2023 (edited) It's good to reference that promise of Jesus Christ to the overcomer, which the Spirit declared to the churches in the message to Philadelphia: He shall write the name of the city of God (new Jerusalem) upon us, and He will also write His new name upon us. As I shared earlier in this topic, there is a direct correlation between the words of Isaiah regarding this very matter and the book of Revelation. In both Isaiah and Revelation, references to the Bride are made. I never gave the matter any consideration until recently and when I did, I learned more than I thought I would. Edited February 10, 2023 by Marathoner Typo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marathoner Posted February 10, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 73 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,486 Content Per Day: 7.13 Reputation: 13,630 Days Won: 99 Joined: 05/24/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted February 10, 2023 4 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said: I am wondering what he meant and why did he say that... What did he consider to say that....we must get to the bottom of it. The Spirit of God inspired him to write, my friend. What else could the Lord have meant by those words? All who belong to Jesus Christ are the seed of Abraham. It's simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted February 10, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,948 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,787 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted February 10, 2023 1 minute ago, Marathoner said: The Spirit of God inspired him to write, my friend. What else could the Lord have meant by those words? All who belong to Jesus Christ are the seed of Abraham. It's simple. That's what I want to believe too. I have to read the book of revelation to find out if Jesus said anything about Abraham and what...and the John's epistles and I do not know why... I am not looking if they said something similar but if they said something else... The prophetic says that Abraham's rein will end when someone else will take his place.... Certainly Abraham was not without sins and he was quite proud of a few... I have to put aside my emotional thinking in this matter... I am not interested in Abraham to be my Father...he did not intercede for me or any one else of the Gentiles... I cannot be in Abraham no matter what ...I cannot have the eligibility for Circumcision... My Circumcision won't count. I cannot show proof of blood eligibility..from Jacob... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted February 10, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 272 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,314 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,562 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted February 10, 2023 1 hour ago, Marathoner said: The Spirit of God inspired him to write, my friend. What else could the Lord have meant by those words? All who belong to Jesus Christ are the seed of Abraham. It's simple. Hi Marathoner, Actually, it means `OF` Abraham`s seed, which is CHRIST. Is that what you mean? `Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another with a pure heart, having been born again, NOT OF CORRUPTIBLE SEED BUT INCORRUPTIBLE, through the word of God which lives and abides forever. ` (1 Peter 1: 22 & 23) We are of Christ - `The first man Adam became a living being, The last Adam became a LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT.` (1 Cor. 15: 45) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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