Will Jesus Rule With A "Rod Of Iron" A King's Scepter, During A Millennium As Many Teach?

[abcdef]

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Jude mentions a place called Tartarus, where angels involved in Genesis 6 are incarcerated.  But he didn't give location coordinates, so I don't know where it is.  btw, what kind of question was that anyway?  Why ask questions where the Bible does NOT give information?  What was your point?

The point is that there is more to the abyss than just a place. In the 5th trumpet the abyss is opened and the beast that comes out kills the 2 witnesses. 

The beast is a nation, Dan 2 iron, 4th beast Dan 7.

So the question would be how does a nation, Rome, get thrown into the abyss, and then come out when the abyss is opened?

Just to say, if you believe that the beast is a person, as some do, how is the person thrown into the abyss and then come out at the 5th trumpet, with the host that are symbolized as locusts?

 

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

See above.

 

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

In ancient times, literal kings held onto literal scepters.  But you can make up your own mind.  The point is that Jesus reigns LITERALLY.

I'll check it out.

Yes, Jesus literally reigns. But that is not all there is to it.

Other factors are involved.

 

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

The point is that there is more to the abyss than just a place. In the 5th trumpet the abyss is opened and the beast that comes out kills the 2 witnesses.

[double click failed.  The 5th trumpet is about locusts with stings like scorpions.  And it will last 5 months.  And "men will seek death and death will elude them". There is nothing about the 2W being killed.]

The beast is a nation, Dan 2 iron, 4th beast Dan 7.

So the question would be how does a nation, Rome, get thrown into the abyss, and then come out when the abyss is opened?

Maybe that's the wrong question.  What fits is the beast is a person.

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

Just to say, if you believe that the beast is a person, as some do, how is the person thrown into the abyss and then come out at the 5th trumpet, with the host that are symbolized as locusts?

I don't see anyone being thrown into the abyss before the 5th trumpet and then coming back out at the 5th trumpet.

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

Yes, Jesus literally reigns. But that is not all there is to it.

Other factors are involved.

The key is that He will reign literally.  Of course there is more.  

[abcdef]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Maybe that's the wrong question.  What fits is the beast is a person.

The beast is a nation, Dan 7 the 4th beast and Dan 2 the iron, who is ruled by a person (Antichrist, Caesar).

The story of the 2 witnesses shows that they are killed by the beast (nation) that ascends from the 5th trumpet abyss, Rev 11:7.

The locusts are symbolic of literal false prophets.

 

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I don't see anyone being thrown into the abyss before the 5th trumpet and then coming back out at the 5th trumpet.

You are correct, most people don't notice that. 

The beast had to be put in there sometime, in order to come out.

Then can you figure out when the beast was thrown into the abyss, in order to come out at the 5th trumpet? It does not show it in the seals/trumpet timeline, but it does in the parallel passage. (Rev 20)

 

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

The key is that He will reign literally.  Of course there is more.  

Jesus reigns literally, yes, but the details are everything.

If the rod of iron is symbolic, is it possible that He is ruling the kingdom with the rod of iron right now, since Pentecost in 33 AD?

 

[FreeGrace]

19 minutes ago, abcdef said:

The beast is a nation, Dan 7 the 4th beast and Dan 2 the iron, who is ruled by a person (Antichrist, Caesar).

The story of the 2 witnesses shows that they are killed by the beast (nation) that ascends from the 5th trumpet abyss, Rev 11:7.

The locusts are symbolic of literal false prophets.

How do you know all this?  What evidence is there for it?

19 minutes ago, abcdef said:

 

You are correct, most people don't notice that. 

The beast had to be put in there sometime, in order to come out.

The beast is cast alive (person) into the LOF in Rev 19 at the end of the battle of Armageddon, along with the FP, also a person.

19 minutes ago, abcdef said:

Then can you figure out when the beast was thrown into the abyss, in order to come out at the 5th trumpet? It does not show it in the seals/trumpet timeline, but it does in the parallel passage. (Rev 20)

It really doesn't matter to me about these kinds of details.  Doesn't change anything.  The important thing is to understand the timeline of things.

19 minutes ago, abcdef said:

 

Jesus reigns literally, yes, but the details are everything.

If the rod of iron is symbolic, is it possible that He is ruling the kingdom with the rod of iron right now, since Pentecost in 33 AD?

 

No.  His reign is AFTER the Second Advent, literally.  There is no evidence that Jesus is reigning now.  In fact, Acts 3:21 says that Jesus remains in heaven "until the time comes for God to restore everything".  

[abcdef]

11 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

How do you know all this?  What evidence is there for it?

The timeline of Dan 7 shows that the beast is shown as a nation. That association is abandoned by some when entering into the Rev timeline, when it shouldn't be.

The beast nation is ruled by the Antichrist, who is Caesar, and the image Caesar the Bishop of Rome, the Vatican image of the Roman Empire. United by Caesar worship.

----

The locusts are literal false prophets that hate the children of Israel.

Symbolized as locusts, they are identified as false prophets by Isa 9:15.

 

11 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

The beast is cast alive (person) into the LOF in Rev 19

The beast that is cast into the LoF in Rev 19 is showing the Roman Empire's conversion to Christianity in the 2nd/3rd century. The FP is Caesar.

Please observe that there is a remnant in Rev 19:21. 

The Beast nation that is thrown into the LoF is the Roman sea beast. The remnant is the Roman earth beast who makes an image empire of continued Caesar worship.

 

11 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

at the end of the battle of Armageddon, along with the FP, also a person.

The battle of Armageddon ends at the 7th vial when the wrath of God is finished. If the battle in Rev 19 was a continuation of Armageddon, then the wrath of God would not be finished, at the 7th vial, a contradiction. 

 

11 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

It really doesn't matter to me about these kinds of details.  Doesn't change anything.

The details are everything to the timelines. The details are most important.

All timelines MUST match the Dan 2 and Dan 7 timelines to be correct. If they don't match, then the theory cannot be true.

To overlook the details, is to mistake the overall timelines. Many just skip the details because they cannot align them with their theories.

 

11 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

 The important thing is to understand the timeline of things.

Start with Dan 2. The iron is Rome. The iron is continual until the toes end and then the stone strikes.

Divided, but continual.

 

11 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

No.  His reign is AFTER the Second Advent, literally.

This is a common mistake. Jesus sits on the throne of God now. All power in heaven and earth is given to Him since His ascension. He rules the kingdom now.

Some believe that He will return to planet earth in His glory for 1000 years, this not correct.

After Jesus comes for the kingdom at the resur/rapt, this planet is fire.

 

11 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

 There is no evidence that Jesus is reigning now.  In fact, Acts 3:21 says that Jesus remains in heaven "until the time comes for God to restore everything". 

Restore everything to what?

To the way it was before creation? Heb 12:26-27.

 

[FreeGrace]

4 minutes ago, abcdef said:

The timeline of Dan 7 shows that the beast is shown as a nation. That association is abandoned by some when entering into the Rev timeline, when it shouldn't be.

Please quote actual verses that "show" this.  I can't just take your word for it.  I need to see what the chapter "shows".  Evidence.

4 minutes ago, abcdef said:

The beast nation is ruled by the Antichrist, who is Caesar, and the image Caesar the Bishop of Rome, the Vatican image of the Roman Empire. United by Caesar worship.

How is this determined?

4 minutes ago, abcdef said:

The locusts are literal false prophets that hate the children of Israel.

Symbolized as locusts, they are identified as false prophets by Isa 9:15.

"the elders and dignitaries are the head, the prophets who teach lies are the tail."

There is no mention of locusts in the verse.  And no link to the end times.

4 minutes ago, abcdef said:

 

The beast that is cast into the LoF in Rev 19 is showing the Roman Empire's conversion to Christianity in the 2nd/3rd century. The FP is Caesar.

This is delusional.  The beast is captured by King Jesus and cast alive into the LOF, a REAL place.  Along with the FP.  And at the GWT judgment of all unbelievers, all of them will join the beast, FP, Satan and his horde, in the LITERAL LOF.

4 minutes ago, abcdef said:

Please observe that there is a remnant in Rev 19:21.

" The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh."

You are not reading very carefully.  There is nothing here about a remnant.

4 minutes ago, abcdef said:

The battle of Armageddon ends at the 7th vial when the wrath of God is finished. If the battle in Rev 19 was a continuation of Armageddon, then the wrath of God would not be finished, at the 7th vial, a contradiction.

[double click failed.  Rev 19 concludes with King Jesus and the "armies of heaven" which are all the saints who have died from Adam on, accompanying Him to earth.  This is the Second Advent.  The battle of Armageddon is ENDED at the Second Advent occurs and the King appears and casts the main characters (beast and FP) into the LOF.]

The details are everything to the timelines. The details are most important.

So far, I'm just getting opinion.  You haven't shown any evidence to support your 'details'.

4 minutes ago, abcdef said:

All timelines MUST match the Dan 2 and Dan 7 timelines to be correct. If they don't match, then the theory cannot be true.

I just read Rev 19 and 20 literally and understand the timeline.

4 minutes ago, abcdef said:

To overlook the details, is to mistake the overall timelines. Many just skip the details because they cannot align them with their theories.

Please show me how my "theory" cannot be correct.

4 minutes ago, abcdef said:

This is a common mistake. Jesus sits on the throne of God now. All power in heaven and earth is given to Him since His ascension. He rules the kingdom now.

There will be survivors of the GT.  All unbelievers.  Those are who Jesus will rule over.

4 minutes ago, abcdef said:

Some believe that He will return to planet earth in His glory for 1000 years, this not correct.

It sure is correct.  Rev 20 is as literal as it gets.  To deny that is to spiritualize the chapter.  That only allows one to make up whatever they want.

Why do you discount Acts 3:21?  I'm shocked at your question.  Are you not aware of  Rev 21 and the "new heaven and new earth"??  That's the restoration.  

[abcdef]

48 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Please quote actual verses that "show" this.  I can't just take your word for it.  I need to see what the chapter "shows".  Evidence.

How is this determined?

As our conversation expands, it is harder to explain, in detail, the things that you are requesting. I will try to explain. At this point, the answers need to be divided into separate posts, due to length and subjects.

The timelines of Dan 7 and Dan 2 show four beast nations that rule over the children of Israel until Jerusalem is restored, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome. All other timeline theories must agree with these basic timelines.  

The timelines begin when Jerusalem falls to Babylon and end when Jerusalem is restored to Israel. The time that the beast nations rule over the children of Israel is known as the times of the gentiles.

The 4th beast nation is also shown as the iron in the statue of Dan 2.

The rule of these nations are continual, they do not stop and then start again, as the statue in Dan 2 shows. 

Observing this means that the rule of the beasts in the Rev is not a beginning of a new beast ruling, but is a continuation of the Roman beast nation. 

Understanding that, it means that the beast in Rev is not something that is future, but is a continuation of the Roman iron in the statue of Dan 2.

The beast nation was there when John wrote the Revelation and continued uninterrupted throughout history, and still exists this very day.

The beast nation is continual and ends at Perdition, Rev 17:11.

--

The idea that the beast in Rev is changed into a man instead of a nation, distorts the prophecies surrounding the entity.  

The Roman beast nation is ruled by the Antichrist.

Rome is Caesar and Caesar is Rome. 

The number of the beast nation, Rome, is the number of a man, Caesar.

 

48 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

 

"the elders and dignitaries are the head, the prophets who teach lies are the tail."

There is no mention of locusts in the verse.  And no link to the end times.

This is delusional.  The beast is captured by King Jesus and cast alive into the LOF, a REAL place.  Along with the FP.  And at the GWT judgment of all unbelievers, all of them will join the beast, FP, Satan and his horde, in the LITERAL LOF.

" The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh."

You are not reading very carefully.  There is nothing here about a remnant.

So far, I'm just getting opinion.  You haven't shown any evidence to support your 'details'.

I just read Rev 19 and 20 literally and understand the timeline.

Please show me how my "theory" cannot be correct.

There will be survivors of the GT.  All unbelievers.  Those are who Jesus will rule over.

It sure is correct.  Rev 20 is as literal as it gets.  To deny that is to spiritualize the chapter.  That only allows one to make up whatever they want.

Why do you discount Acts 3:21?  I'm shocked at your question.  Are you not aware of  Rev 21 and the "new heaven and new earth"??  That's the restoration.  

 

[FreeGrace]

10 minutes ago, abcdef said:

As our conversation expands, it is harder to explain, in detail, the things that you are requesting. I will try to explain. At this point, the answers need to be divided into separate posts, due to length and subjects.

How can Scripture be "harder to explain" when discussing it?  There should be clear verses and passages to support one's claims.  

10 minutes ago, abcdef said:

The timelines of Dan 7 and Dan 2 show four beast nations that rule over the children of Israel until Jerusalem is restored, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome. All other timeline theories must agree with these basic timelines.

[double click failed.  The visions are the history of the world.  They have nothing to do with end times activities.]

  The timelines begin when Jerusalem falls to Babylon and end when Jerusalem is restored to Israel. The time that the beast nations rule over the children of Israel is known as the times of the gentiles.

The 4th beast nation is also shown as the iron in the statue of Dan 2.

The rule of these nations are continual, they do not stop and then start again, as the statue in Dan 2 shows. 

Observing this means that the rule of the beasts in the Rev is not a beginning of a new beast ruling, but is a continuation of the Roman beast nation. 

Understanding that, it means that the beast in Rev is not something that is future, but is a continuation of the Roman iron in the statue of Dan 2.

The beast nation was there when John wrote the Revelation and continued uninterrupted throughout history, and still exists this very day.

The beast nation is continual and ends at Perdition, Rev 17:11.

--

The idea that the beast in Rev is changed into a man instead of a nation, distorts the prophecies surrounding the entity.  

The Roman beast nation is ruled by the Antichrist.

Rome is Caesar and Caesar is Rome. 

The number of the beast nation, Rome, is the number of a man, Caesar.

None of this can be proven.  They are ideas only.  And have no real effect on what will occur during the GT or the MK.  

[abcdef]

5 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

How can Scripture be "harder to explain" when discussing it?  There should be clear verses and passages to support one's claims.

It is harder to explain to someone who is unfamiliar with scriptures.

You should know what Dan 7 and Dan 2 are about.

If I have to explain them to you it takes longer.

If you have been just accepting what others say without serious study then it is harder because you may not study the possible options to find out if they may be true.  

 

5 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

None of this can be proven.  They are ideas only.

History PROVES that the 4 nations that ruled over the children of Israel were Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome.

It is not my "idea", but history that you should know and that the Bible itself shows.

They were future when Daniel wrote them, but are now mostly history.

 

5 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

 And have no real effect on what will occur during the GT or the MK.  

Is that what you have been taught to believe? That the Rev is all future?

Sorry, but it is not. It contains much that has already come to pass by our time. Not all of it, but in our time most of it has.

Including the trib, the times of the gentiles, that ended in 1967, and the MK that is just about to come to a close on this planet.

The pretrib theory is full of holes that most people will not take the time to investigate.

 

[abcdef]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

How can Scripture be "harder to explain" when discussing it?  There should be clear verses and passages to support one's claims.  

None of this can be proven.  They are ideas only.  And have no real effect on what will occur during the GT or the MK.  

Ok then, please explain Isa 9:15.