DeighAnn Posted April 21, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 6,301 Content Per Day: 3.59 Reputation: 1,658 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/31/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted April 21, 2023 (edited) Where is it written 'the church' has been renamed 'the elders'? PTRD has the church in heaven in Rev 4, yet it isn't even until REV 5 that CHRIST is found in heaven. So HOW is that possible? PTRD has THE CHURCH IN HEAVEN BEFORE JOHN 1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. 3And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. 4And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. PTRD has THE CHURCH IN HEAVEN BEFORE THE LAMB SLAIN 7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. 8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. Having THE CHURCH IN HEAVEN before CHRIST would mean THIS COULD NOT BE TRUTH 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. BECAUSE they were THERE BEFORE EVERYONE WHICH WOULD MEAN THAT EVERYONE WHO CAME BEFORE WAS PREVENTED or else THE ELDERS are not just the RAPTURED CHURCH THEY ARE ALL CHRISTIANS of all time THAT HAVE LIVED AND DIED which would mean we have ALREADY lived and died. It's all just SO CONFUSION. Do I have this all wrong? Am I missing something? Is there something that CHANGES this? Can anyone explain? Edited April 21, 2023 by DeighAnn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayne Posted April 21, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 108 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 3,828 Content Per Day: 1.29 Reputation: 4,818 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/31/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted April 21, 2023 Jesus has been risen from the dead and returned to be with the Father for 2,ooo years. Christ has been in "heaven" with the Father since he ascended. The church was not born until after that. Just because Revelation 5 mentions Jesus, the Lamb, being with the Father does not mean that this is the starting time for him being there. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeighAnn Posted April 21, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 6,301 Content Per Day: 3.59 Reputation: 1,658 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/31/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 21, 2023 1 minute ago, Jayne said: Jesus has been risen from the dead and returned to be with the Father for 2,ooo years. Christ has been in "heaven" with the Father since he ascended. The church was not born until after that. Just because Revelation 5 mentions Jesus, the Lamb, being with the Father does not mean that this is the starting time for him being there. 1And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. 2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? 3And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. 4And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. 5And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. 6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. I would have to disagree. This is a distinct timeline that FOLLOWS the rejection of the King and the kingdom. If they had not been rejected, THIS BOOK would have never been unsealed, wouldn't you agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeighAnn Posted April 21, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 6,301 Content Per Day: 3.59 Reputation: 1,658 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/31/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 21, 2023 7 minutes ago, Jayne said: The church was not born until after that. I can't agree with that either. "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Matthew 16:18 KJV "And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican." Matthew 18:17 KJV "This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:" Acts 7:38 KJV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayne Posted April 21, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 108 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 3,828 Content Per Day: 1.29 Reputation: 4,818 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/31/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted April 21, 2023 34 minutes ago, DeighAnn said: I can't agree with that either. "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Matthew 16:18 KJV "And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican." Matthew 18:17 KJV "This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:" Acts 7:38 KJV In talking to Peter, Jesus said "will" - future tense. The word church, "ekklesia" just means "assembly". Yes, that meant Moses and the Israelites in the wilderness and Jesus talking to people in his day about religious assembly. But if you are speaking of the "church" as the body of risen Christ - that did not begin until day of Pentecost. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BibleWords Posted April 21, 2023 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 233 Content Per Day: 0.56 Reputation: 140 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/30/2023 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/20/1957 Share Posted April 21, 2023 Jesus said in John 14:2-“I go to prepare a place for you”. Jesus was going to the Father’s house. He said so. The church did not go there before Him. Rev. 4 is a vision of heaven, and yes Jesus is there, but He didn’t just get there. He has been with the Father for 2000 years, sitting at the Father’s right hand. Rev. 4—A vision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael37 Posted April 21, 2023 Group: Servant Followers: 21 Topic Count: 245 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 7,040 Content Per Day: 3.28 Reputation: 4,948 Days Won: 2 Joined: 07/05/2018 Status: Online Birthday: 09/23/1954 Share Posted April 21, 2023 2 hours ago, DeighAnn said: Where is it written 'the church' has been renamed 'the elders'? PTRD has the church in heaven in Rev 4, yet it isn't even until REV 5 that CHRIST is found in heaven. So HOW is that possible? PTRD has THE CHURCH IN HEAVEN BEFORE JOHN 1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. 3And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. 4And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. PTRD has THE CHURCH IN HEAVEN BEFORE THE LAMB SLAIN 7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. 8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. Having THE CHURCH IN HEAVEN before CHRIST would mean THIS COULD NOT BE TRUTH 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. BECAUSE they were THERE BEFORE EVERYONE WHICH WOULD MEAN THAT EVERYONE WHO CAME BEFORE WAS PREVENTED or else THE ELDERS are not just the RAPTURED CHURCH THEY ARE ALL CHRISTIANS of all time THAT HAVE LIVED AND DIED which would mean we have ALREADY lived and died. It's all just SO CONFUSION. Do I have this all wrong? Am I missing something? Is there something that CHANGES this? Can anyone explain? The Ascension of Christ as witnessed by His followers forty days after His Resurrection: Act 1:1-3 The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, (2) until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen, (3) to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God. Act 1:6-11 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" (7) And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. (8) But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." (9) Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. (10) And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, (11) who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven." Many things have happened following the Ascension of Christ to heaven, including the vision given to John on the island of Patmos in which he is shown how God's Plan works out. The Book of Revelation is a complex and highly symbolic work that describes a series of events leading up to the end of the world. The order of events in the book is not always clear and is subject to interpretation. However, a general outline of the events described in Revelation includes letters to seven churches, the opening of seven seals, the sounding of seven trumpets, the pouring out of seven bowls of wrath, and the final judgment. The rapture is an event commonly referred to as the moment when Jesus will come for His Church before He establishes His kingdom on earth. The exact timing of the rapture in relation to the return of Christ is a subject of debate among Christians. Some believe that it will occur before a period of tribulation, while others believe that it will occur after or during this period. The seven seals represent experiences that have been taking place on earth since antiquity, those that are currently occurring, and those that are particular to the cataclysmic end of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeighAnn Posted April 21, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 6,301 Content Per Day: 3.59 Reputation: 1,658 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/31/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 21, 2023 1 hour ago, Jayne said: In talking to Peter, Jesus said "will" - future tense. The word church, "ekklesia" just means "assembly". Yes, that meant Moses and the Israelites in the wilderness and Jesus talking to people in his day about religious assembly. But if you are speaking of the "church" as the body of risen Christ - that did not begin until day of Pentecost. That makes it even worse for the PTRD doesn't it? HOW could the church be in heaven before Christ, if it hadn't even begun until after He was risen. Thank you for that perspective, I hadn't thought of that, but still, I am not going to be able to use it because I truly believe the 12 Apostles that followed Jesus had formed a 'church' already. Maybe it wasn't called by that name, but maybe that is just because in Matt 18 we have Jesus speaking and it doesn't sound future at all to me... 15Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. 18Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. That verse 18 is one of my favorites as it keeps me honest, keeps my heart and my intentions on His will, not my own. Something about receiving everything done in this body. Makes me wonder why so many people concentrate on the gift of Salvation which keeps us from Hell by paying the penalty of sin but doesn't change the receiving of both good and bad deeds when we get to Christ, does it? I can't wait to see how what everyone thinks is all hidden is brought out into the light and what THAT is going to look like. Thank God for good works...thank God I have gotten to live this long to hide a multitude of those 'younger year' trespasses... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeighAnn Posted April 21, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 6,301 Content Per Day: 3.59 Reputation: 1,658 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/31/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 21, 2023 49 minutes ago, BibleWords said: Jesus said in John 14:2-“I go to prepare a place for you”. Jesus was going to the Father’s house. He said so. The church did not go there before Him. Rev. 4 is a vision of heaven, and yes Jesus is there, but He didn’t just get there. He has been with the Father for 2000 years, sitting at the Father’s right hand. Rev. 4—A vision. I absolutely agree, Christ Jesus has been in heaven for 2000 years and has not returned since and so it is impossible for the church to be "the elders" we see before He got there. Not following what 'A vision' means as that is a way prophecy was/is/is going to be given, but OK and thank you for the reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael37 Posted April 21, 2023 Group: Servant Followers: 21 Topic Count: 245 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 7,040 Content Per Day: 3.28 Reputation: 4,948 Days Won: 2 Joined: 07/05/2018 Status: Online Birthday: 09/23/1954 Share Posted April 21, 2023 6 minutes ago, DeighAnn said: That makes it even worse for the PTRD doesn't it? HOW could the church be in heaven before Christ, if it hadn't even begun until after He was risen. Can you provide evidence of any person or organisation that maintains "the church is raptured before Jesus is risen"? Where have you picked up this argument from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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