The Problem With Evolution Part 2- Animals

[FreeGrace]

12 hours ago, Sparks said:

I don't have the time to waste on this anymore.  I appreciate the chat.  If you have other topics in mind, look me up, but this one is pointless. 

OK, thanks.  I just wish you had read the whole context for "tohu wabohu" in Jer 4:23 and Isa 34:11.  It would be eye-opening.

I, too, appreciate the chat.   

[FreeGrace]

36 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.  The word of God trumps the theories of man.  These words inscribed on a stone tablet by the Creator are the basis of all law.

The Hebrew for "made earth" is 'asah' and is used for making something from existing materials.  But Gen 1:1 for "created" is 'bara' and is used for creating something out of nothing, from which we get the words "ex nihilo".  For example, 

Gen 1:26 - Then God said, “Let us make (asah) mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

v.27 - So God created (bara) mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created (bara) them; male and female he created (bara) them.

v.26 speaks of Adam's body (Psa 2:7) formed from the "dust of the ground", or existing materials.

v.27 speaks of Adam's immaterial soul, which was created out of nothing.

Likewise, Gen 1:1 says that God created (bara) the heavens and earth.  That means they were created out of nothing.  He simply spoke them into existence.

Psa 33:6 - By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth.

Psa 33:9 - For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm.

This is undebatable.

36 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

Genesis 1 tracks the formation of the earth from a gaseous state to a liquid and then to a solid.  The states of matter perfectly correspond (excluding plasma, which was added later).

There is no evidence for any of this.  There is no context where we read about the earth being FORMED from air to liquid to solid.  And Psa 33:6,9 refutes that idea.

36 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

Why does it look old?

Because it is.

36 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

  We who have never created a planet wouldn't understand.

Appealing to having never created a planet is irrelevant.  We don't need experience to understand all that God did.  It's all in the Bible.

36 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

  My thinking is that God created everything in a mature state, including man, and including the planet.  This is borne out by the text.

First, God created man and woman in a mature state because they needed to be functional.  Adam had a lot of duties, and no infant or child could possibly do.

That is clearly borne out by the text.  However, you need to provide a sane logical reason for God needing to create the planet "mature", as in looking much older than it really is.  

God didn't need to do that and He DIDN'T DO THAT.  The apparent age of the earth is the real age of the earth.

36 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

  The earth was formed with oil deep inside because one day man would discover and use it.

Everyone else knows where oil comes from:  dinosaurs.

36 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

  The same applies to coal, gold, and lithium.  Every great resource was in place before we needed it.  There are no fossil fuels.  Oil was here from the beginning.

Assumption only.  

Can you explain WHY Moses used "tohu wabohu" (formless and void) in Gen 1:2 if he was dealing with original creation of the earth but Jeremiah and Isaiah used "tohu wabohu" to describe the total destruction of the land?

That would mean you need to give a sane explanation for how the 2 Hebrew words can be used for creation as well as total destruction.

I look forward to your response.

[RV_Wizard]

11 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

The same thing he always says.

We've heard your argument.  We don't believe it.  Repeating it again and again doesn't make it true.  God said He created the heavens, the earth and all that is in them in six days.  That's quite simply the end of the discussion.  You can parse words all you want, but the words of the Fourth Commandment are simple and irrefutable.

Oil doesn't come from dinosaurs.  There is more oil than there ever were dinosaurs.  The planet is full of oil.  We have hundreds of years worth just based on what we've already discovered.  Oil was in the earth long before man knew what oil was.

[FreeGrace]

6 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

We've heard your argument.  We don't believe it.

Facts are facts.  You haven't explained how "tohu wabohu" can be used in a verse describing God creating earth and in the other 2 verses describing total destruction of the land.  

6 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Repeating it again and again doesn't make it true.  God said He created the heavens, the earth and all that is in them in six days.

As you say, "repeating it again and again doesn't make it true".  You don't have any facts other than a lousy translation of Gen 1:2.  The words "tohu wabohu" mean the SAME THING in all 3 verses that contain the 2 words together.  Fact.

6 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

  That's quite simply the end of the discussion.  You can parse words all you want, but the words of the Fourth Commandment are simple and irrefutable.

You have been shown the word in v.11 is 'asah' which doesn't mean to create out of nothing, but to made from existing materials.  Psa 33:6 and 9 refute your improper understanding of Ex 20:11.

6 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

Oil doesn't come from dinosaurs.  There is more oil than there ever were dinosaurs.  The planet is full of oil.

Where does that opinion come from?

6 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

  We have hundreds of years worth just based on what we've already discovered.  Oil was in the earth long before man knew what oil was.

So what?  Deal with "tohu wabohu" in the only 3 verses they are found together.

[RV_Wizard]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Facts are facts.  You haven't explained how "tohu wabohu" can be used in a verse describing God creating earth and in the other 2 verses describing total destruction of the land.

It has been explained to you, that without form and void means the earth formed in a gaseous state, then cooled and solidified into land and water.  This happened in one day.  No long ages.  No mystical event that messed up a 13 billion year old planet and made God start over.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

You have been shown the word in v.11 is 'asah' which doesn't mean to create out of nothing, but to made from existing materials.

Or so you say.  What does the word "gay" mean?  What did "queer" mean before becoming a pejorative term for homosexuals?  How many definitions are there for the word "run?"  Words mean exactly what they mean at the time used, in the context used.  Conversely, they can be misused to pretend to mean things they do not.  You're trying to create a different process than what happened.  God spoke, it happened.  Six days.  God Himself inscribed it in stone.  Case closed.

Oil is a naturally occurring substance that, like coal, had nothing whatever to do with dead dinosaurs.  We can get oil from corn, vegetables, coal, even from fish.  We can get it from whales.  Crude oil is a little different, but still all natural in its origins.  Science tries to find naturalistic explanations for things.  However, since the planet we live on was created by supernatural means, the natural method cannot explain the origins of anything accurately.

 

[RV_Wizard]

If it takes millions of years for oil to form naturally, and the earth is not millions of years old, then oil didn't form naturally.

(With a few noted exceptions) all the elements and isotopes found on Earth were created by the s-process or the r-process in stars or stellar collisions, and for those to be today a part of the Earth, must have been created not later than 4.5 billion years ago.  source  The earth is not even a million years old.  Therefore, all the radioactive isotopes on earth were created when the earth was.

It takes between one billion and three billion years for a diamond to form naturally.  The earth isn't that old, so therefore diamonds were created when the earth was.

God didn't make a planet inhospitable to life, He made a world where everything we need to exist is within it.  Thus, it becomes a easy choice to accept or reject Him.  The information is there to either prove to yourself that nothing came from God or that everything came from God.  It's your own choice.  You can believe on Jesus as your lord and savior or dismiss it all as the ancient writings of bronze age shepherds.  It's your eternal destiny and your choice.  

[FreeGrace]

8 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

It has been explained to you, that without form and void means the earth formed in a gaseous state, then cooled and solidified into land and water.  This happened in one day.  No long ages.

This is silly since both Jeremiah and Isaiah used those SAME 2 words in describing the total destruction of the land, and you won't even read the passages.  Much less explain how those 2 words can mean what you opine in Gen 1:2, given Jer 4:23 ahd Isa 34:11.

How can I take anything you say seriously when you aren't being serious?

8 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  No mystical event that messed up a 13 billion year old planet and made God start over.

No one ever said anything about some "mystical event".  Why do you use such pejorative wording?  I believe Gen 1:1 occurred when scientists who MEASURE such things said it did.  And all without any stupid "mystical event" nonsense.

However, something obviously occurred between v.1 and v.2 as the wording of the verse clearly indicates, when studied objecrtively and by comparing how the key words in v.2 are used elsewhere.  

8 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  FreeGrace said: 

You have been shown the word in v.11 is 'asah' which doesn't mean to create out of nothing, but to made from existing materials.

Or so you say.  What does the word "gay" mean?  What did "queer" mean before becoming a pejorative term for homosexuals?  How many definitions are there for the word "run?"

All this is irrelevant.  btw, this isn't about what I say.  It is about what lexicons say.  Apparently you are unfamiliar with what a lexicon is.  

8 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Words mean exactly what they mean at the time used, in the context used.

Well, good for you.  We HAVE 2 contexts where those SAME 2 words describe the total destruction of the land, and yet you believe those SAME 2 words refer to original creation!!!!  Please don't mention "context" to me when you REFUSE to read the only  2 other contexts where "tohu wabohu" is found.  Because it is hypocritical to refer to "context" in 1 place all the while ignoring 2 contexts that clearly show WHAT "tohu wabohu"really means.  All because it REFUTES your faulty understanding from Gen 1:2.

8 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Conversely, they can be misused to pretend to mean things they do not.

Why don't you quit pretending that Jer 4:23 and Isa 34:11 don't exist.  Read them.

8 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  You're trying to create a different process than what happened.

Oh, good grief!  Are you serious?  There was NO process.  Gen 1:1 is explained in Psa 33:6 and 9.  God simply SPOKE the universe and earth into existence, from nothing.

8 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  God spoke, it happened.  Six days.  God Himself inscribed it in stone.  Case closed.

Sure, God spoke many things into existence during the restoration PROCESS that took 6 days.

8 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

However, since the planet we live on was created by supernatural means, the natural method cannot explain the origins of anything accurately.

How is this relevant to anything regarding God's restoration of earth?

[FreeGrace]

6 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

If it takes millions of years for oil to form naturally, and the earth is not millions of years old, then oil didn't form naturally.

That is your very unscientific opinion.  

6 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

God didn't make a planet inhospitable to life, He made a world where everything we need to exist is within it.

Are you really unable to comprehend a contradiction that I have already showed you??

TT Gen 1:1-2  "God created (bara) the heavens and earth and the earth was "tohu".

Isa 45:18 - "God DID NOT create (bara) the earth "tohu"

There it is again.  Available for all to see and understand.

So, question AGAIN.  Which verse are you going to ignore or cut from your Bible?  Because they are contradictory.

6 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Thus, it becomes a easy choice to accept or reject Him. 

So now you're changing gears from creation to salvation.  Why?

6 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

The information is there to either prove to yourself that nothing came from God or that everything came from God.  It's your own choice.

Now this is a really bizarre statement.  I have always said that the entire universe and earth were created by God, as Gen 1:1 says, and was spoken into existence as Psa 33:6 and 9 say.  So why are you trying to demonize my view by suggesting that I believe that "nothing came from God".  You are doing what the wacko lunatic political left does.  They can't defend their own position so they just demonize their opponents.

6 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

  You can believe on Jesus as your lord and savior or dismiss it all as the ancient writings of bronze age shepherds.  It's your eternal destiny and your choice.  

You are getting way off track and rather irrational.  My eternal destiny was determined the MOMENT I placed my faith and trust in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross and I received the free gift of eternal life.

Now, if that doesn't convince you that I WILL BE in heaven when I die, you don't understand the gospel promise yourself.

Do you think that the issue of earth age is connected to one's salvation?

[FreeGrace]

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

It has been explained to you, that without form and void means the earth formed in a gaseous state, then cooled and solidified into land and water.  This happened in one day.  No long ages.  No mystical event that messed up a 13 billion year old planet and made God start over.

You are free to believe whatever your imagination leads you to believe, but the Hebrew is clear enough, as I've shown and you have ignored.

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Or so you say.  What does the word "gay" mean?  What did "queer" mean before becoming a pejorative term for homosexuals?  How many definitions are there for the word "run?"  Words mean exactly what they mean at the time used, in the context used.  Conversely, they can be misused to pretend to mean things they do not.  You're trying to create a different process than what happened.  God spoke, it happened.  Six days.  God Himself inscribed it in stone.  Case closed.

Interesting that you mention "context".  I've already commented on your hypocritical dismissal of the context of the only other 2 passages that contain the Hebrew "tohu wabohu"; Jer 4:23 and Isa 34:11.  

And in Gen 1:2 there is NO CONTEXT whatsoever because the text goes from original creation of the "heavens and earth" to the condition of the earth in v.2 that required a restoration before man could live on it.

So the ONLY place to find CONTEXT and UNDERSTAND "tohu wabohu" is in Jer 4 and Isa 34.  So you SHOULD read the 2 passages to GET the context for how "tohu wabohu" was used BEFORE you make any more embarrassing (ignorant) comments about Gen 1:2, which has NO context at all.  

The translators of the Septuagint translated the conjunction that begins v.2 as a conjunction of contrast, or 'de', which is "but" in English, showing a contrast between v.1 and 2.  In the Hebrew, the 'waw' was used for both "and" and "but", so the determiner of which to use was based on CONTEXT.  And the ONLY context available is the Hebrew "tohu" which those translators rendered as "unsightly".

So you can throw out the ridiculous translation of "formless".  There is no connection between "formless" and "unsightly".  They are totally different words.  

But, from the 2 contexts where "tohu wabohu" are found, the words describes the total destruction of the land, which obviously could be described as "unsightly".

Or, would you rather argue that God created the earth initially in an unsightly condition?  Because that's your only option.

Good luck with that ridiculous idea.

God is perfect and creates perfectly.  He's not a sloppy Creator.  That is why the LXX translators rendered "waw" as "but" rather than "and".

English translators are the sloppy ones, who trample all over "tohu wabohu" and ignore the real meaning of them and therefore chose the wrong conjunction word, which has led many many peope astray, including you.

Gen 1:2  BUT the earth BECAME an unsightly uninhabitable wasteland".  

You're welcome.   

[RV_Wizard]

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 Much less explain how those 2 words can mean what you opine in Gen 1:2, given Jer 4:23 ahd Isa 34:11.

It doesn't matter what the words mean, it matters what they meant.

I gave you examples of things that have an entirely different meaning today than was intended or used earlier.  King James employed the finest scholars of the day to interpret the sacred writings, and thus the King James Bible was created.  It is considered by most to be the most accurate rendition of God's word available.

There is no talk of a restoration.  The KJV translation fits with the Fourth Commandment.  What you are espousing does not.  I don't know of a single Biblical scholar who agrees with you.

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Why do you use such pejorative wording?

Do you prefer "ficticious?"

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 I believe Gen 1:1 occurred when scientists who MEASURE such things said it did.

So you believe that people using the study of the NATURAL world can accurately measure a SUPERNATURAL creation, and that the actual CREATOR who said He did it in six days can't be trusted.  And you wonder why I don't believe you?

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

All this is irrelevant.  btw, this isn't about what I say.  It is about what lexicons say.

Lexicon says.  Not plural.  You're referencing one language.  When you pretend to know something I don't, at least use the proper terminology.

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Please don't mention "context" to me when you REFUSE to read the only  2 other contexts where "tohu wabohu" is found.

What foolishness to presume to know what I have read or have not read simply because I and nearly all on earth disagree with what you proclaim to be true.

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

God simply SPOKE the universe and earth into existence, from nothing.

And yet, you defer to scientists regarding the age of the earth.  Do you not see the incongruity in your reasoning?