Scott Free Posted February 22 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 88 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 1,276 Content Per Day: 0.62 Reputation: 290 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/15/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 22 3 minutes ago, farouk said: Hi @Scott Free I'm reminded of Hebrews 11.3: "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." I absolutely agree. I am just taking the con side for the sake of debate. This does not reflect my approach to witnessing or view of the Bibles authority. Ultimately, it is demonstrating the power of the Holy Spirit that produces the best results when witnessing. Winning someone over with argument and reason creates a weak foundation and is ill advised. Thou, the strict literal interpretation of the creation stories creates a preposterous narrative that the majority if Christians to not accept. Is it so important to see it that way, even at the expense of tripping those reaching for the Gospel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farouk Posted February 22 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 26 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 6,558 Content Per Day: 12.21 Reputation: 3,346 Days Won: 31 Joined: 11/18/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted February 22 36 minutes ago, Scott Free said: I absolutely agree. I am just taking the con side for the sake of debate. This does not reflect my approach to witnessing or view of the Bibles authority. Ultimately, it is demonstrating the power of the Holy Spirit that produces the best results when witnessing. Winning someone over with argument and reason creates a weak foundation and is ill advised. Thou, the strict literal interpretation of the creation stories creates a preposterous narrative that the majority if Christians to not accept. Is it so important to see it that way, even at the expense of tripping those reaching for the Gospel? @Scott Free I do think the record of Scripture is in harmony, internally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Free Posted February 22 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 88 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 1,276 Content Per Day: 0.62 Reputation: 290 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/15/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 22 (edited) 1 hour ago, farouk said: @Scott Free I do think the record of Scripture is in harmony, internally. That is a perfectly valid approach. A softball example of what I mean: James and Paul contradicted each other, leading to our confusion over works vs. faith. "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." James 2:24 "For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law." Rom. 3:28 I am just trying to promote balanced mindset imposed by these seemingly contrary following scriptures, "Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture comes from one’s own interpretation. For no such prophecy was ever brought forth by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit..." 2 Peter 1:20-21 "Now our knowledge is partial and incomplete, and even the gift of prophecy reveals only part of the whole picture, but when the perfect comes, the partial passes away. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I set aside childish ways.…" I Corinthians 13:9-11 Edited February 22 by Scott Free Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RV_Wizard Posted February 23 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 773 Content Per Day: 0.83 Reputation: 327 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/22/2021 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/05/1962 Share Posted February 23 7 hours ago, Scott Free said: Thou, the strict literal interpretation of the creation stories creates a preposterous narrative that the majority if Christians to not accept. Which makes more sense, "In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth," or, "In the beginning there was nothing, then nothing became an incredibly dense something which blew up and became everything. Of course, when it blew up it created perfect order instead of chaos, which is the natural result of things blowing up. Then somehow life formed from non-living chemicals, and it morphed into all the plants and animals of the world." There is no scientific explanation for the origination of anything, because origination is impossible. Matter/energy cannot be created or destroyed, only changed in form. In either scenario, you have to believe in something that is impossible. God can do the impossible. Other than with God, natural laws are absolute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Free Posted February 23 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 88 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 1,276 Content Per Day: 0.62 Reputation: 290 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/15/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 23 2 hours ago, RV_Wizard said: God can do the impossible. Other than with God, natural laws are absolute. The Bible is not addressing scientific observation. It is making a point that God is eternal and separate from His creation. A concept that was revolutionary for its time and a major stepping stone in the path that has led us to our view of YWHW today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Free Posted February 23 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 88 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 1,276 Content Per Day: 0.62 Reputation: 290 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/15/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 23 (edited) 23 hours ago, The Barbarian said: But you and your fellow objectors aren't very credible, compared to people like Augustine. I realized something interesting. The debate between taking the Old Testament literal or being open to interpretation was the same argument James and Paul had. Paul objected to James(who became the leader of the Church of Jerusalem) making Christianity an extension of Judaism. James wanted to adhere to the commands of the Prophets, while Paul thought we had outgrown their precepts and have something more mature in Christ. Does the following sound familiar? (James)"We also have the word of the prophets as confirmed beyond doubt. And you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture comes from one’s own interpretation. For no such prophecy was ever brought forth by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.…" 2 Peter 1:19-20 (Paul)"For we now know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.… " 1 Corinthians 13:9–12 Edited February 23 by Scott Free Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Barbarian Posted February 23 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,074 Content Per Day: 0.67 Reputation: 970 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/20/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted February 23 I'd have to think about that for a bit. Never looked it the issue that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Free Posted February 23 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 88 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 1,276 Content Per Day: 0.62 Reputation: 290 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/15/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 23 1 minute ago, The Barbarian said: I'd have to think about that for a bit. Never looked it the issue that way. This difference in viewing the Old Testament between James and Paul gave us this little gem of contradiction. "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." James 2:24 "For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law." Rom. 3:28 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RV_Wizard Posted February 23 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 773 Content Per Day: 0.83 Reputation: 327 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/22/2021 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/05/1962 Share Posted February 23 (edited) 8 hours ago, Scott Free said: I realized something interesting. The debate between taking the Old Testament literal or being open to interpretation was the same argument James and Paul had. Both were right. James is correct in saying that all true prophesy came from God and not man. The prophesies were fulfilled when Christ arrived. The Scriptural prophesies came from God and were fulfilled by Christ. Paul is referencing the new covenant; salvation through grace. The revelations of the Holy Spirit fill the gap between what is known and the revealed mysteries of God. None of that invalidates the Scriptures. It does mean God no longer uses prophets because the Holy Spirit fulfills that role. Remember, that to be born again is to be a new creature and to have the faith of a child; accepting all the Father reveals. Edited February 23 by RV_Wizard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RV_Wizard Posted February 23 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 773 Content Per Day: 0.83 Reputation: 327 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/22/2021 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/05/1962 Share Posted February 23 8 hours ago, Scott Free said: The Bible is not addressing scientific observation. It is making a point that God is eternal and separate from His creation. Scientific is not the truth. It's only the search for a natural explanation. How would science explain Gideon's fleece? How does science account the the parting of the Red Sea? Or floating an ax head? Or Manna? Or water from a rock? If you removed all the miracles from the Bible, you would have a pamphlet. Scientific research can only be right if the occurrence happened naturally. Nothing in science can confirm the supernatural. It doesn't mean that science is flawed. It means that things that are supernatural do not, by definition, conform to the physical laws of the world we live in. Science tells us that a man three days dead cannot rise again from the dead. If your faith lies only with science, then you are eternally lost. You have to have faith in that which is not possible if you are to find forgiveness for your sins. Sin, after all, is not a scientific concept. Like it or not, the only way to Heaven (for which there is no scientific evidence) is to put your faith in something that is entirely supernatural and therefore unprovable by the scientific method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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