The Barbarian Posted February 16 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,051 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 969 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/20/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted February 16 3 hours ago, RV_Wizard said: see. Your problem is comprehension. "Fibonacci introduced the concept of fractions to Italy in 1202AD, but fractions weren't used in Europe before Simon Stevin introduced then in 1585 AD..." You think that by reading that the CONCEPT of fractions was introduced in Italy but that the USE of fractions didn't become common in Europe until 1585 AD that the person writing the article didn't understand geography? Fibonacci used them in Italy. Which is a part of Europe. Your guy may have intended to insert "common" , but didn't. So what he wrote made no sense. Maybe he just was careless in his writing, or maybe he wasn't aware that Italy is part of Europe; we can't tell from his statement. He was wrong about fractions not being commonly used until 1585, too. In fact, the Arab style, using a bar to separate the numerals, was in use well before then. The bar is generally found in Latin manuscripts of the late Middle Ages, but when printing was introduced it was frequently omitted, doubtless owing to typographical difficulties. This inference is confirmed by such books as Rudolff's Kunstliche rechnung (1526), where the bar is omitted in all ordinary fractions but is inserted in fractions printed in larger type and those having large numbers (Smith vol. 2, page 216). https://mathshistory.st-andrews.ac.uk/Miller/mathsym/fractions/ 3 hours ago, RV_Wizard said: Should we reject the Gospels entirely because the writers at the time didn't reference air travel? What you should do, is listen to what God is telling you, and stop obsessing on details that mean nothing to His message. 3 hours ago, RV_Wizard said: Why not just admit that you don't believe anything in the Bible and stop pretending? I'm pointing out that you ignore what God is telling you in the Bible. Try to just take it His way, and you won't want to revise scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparks Posted February 16 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 23 Topic Count: 28 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 6,159 Content Per Day: 2.04 Reputation: 2,513 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/20/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted February 16 1 hour ago, The Barbarian said: The initial settings on the device suggest it was built shortly after 200 BC. The fact that it had the Greek Zodiac rather than any Mesopotamian ones, indicates it was constructed in one of the Greek colonies. Had some Babylonian writing, much older. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Barbarian Posted February 16 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,051 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 969 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/20/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted February 16 1 hour ago, Sparks said: Had some Babylonian writing, much older. Seems unlikely, given that cuniform was not easily done on bronze. checkable source? 2.3. Inscriptions on the Antikythera Mechanism Inscriptions in ancient Greek have been found in many of the fragments of the Antikythera Mechanism. Practically all of them were originally on or around the dials on the exterior of the Mechanism itself, or on the detachable cover plates (the exceptions are letters or numerals on a few interior components, which likely served the mechanician to identify parts). The shorter inscriptions on the dials consist of single words, numerals, and symbols, and give information necessary for the reading of information off the dials, for example the year numbers and month names on the spiral Metonic calendar dial. The longer inscriptions, none of which survives in its entirety, were generally expressed in complete sentences, and provided detailed information about the Mechanism and the astronomical phenomena that it displayed, probably intended for the benefit of the operator and spectators of the Mechanism in action. The inscriptions are engraved in skilfully executed serifed capital letters very similar to the lettering of inscriptions on stone from the last three centuries BC. The letter forms are most characteristic of the second half of the 2nd century BC, http://dlib.nyu.edu/awdl/isaw/isaw-papers/4/ It seems the features of the mechanism were right at the edge of engineering precision of the time. It would have been beyond the capability of Babylonian craftsmen of an earlier time. And notice, no Babylonian writing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparks Posted February 16 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 23 Topic Count: 28 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 6,159 Content Per Day: 2.04 Reputation: 2,513 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/20/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted February 16 5 hours ago, The Barbarian said: Seems unlikely, given that cuniform was not easily done on bronze. checkable source? 2.3. Inscriptions on the Antikythera Mechanism Inscriptions in ancient Greek have been found in many of the fragments of the Antikythera Mechanism. Practically all of them were originally on or around the dials on the exterior of the Mechanism itself, or on the detachable cover plates (the exceptions are letters or numerals on a few interior components, which likely served the mechanician to identify parts). The shorter inscriptions on the dials consist of single words, numerals, and symbols, and give information necessary for the reading of information off the dials, for example the year numbers and month names on the spiral Metonic calendar dial. The longer inscriptions, none of which survives in its entirety, were generally expressed in complete sentences, and provided detailed information about the Mechanism and the astronomical phenomena that it displayed, probably intended for the benefit of the operator and spectators of the Mechanism in action. The inscriptions are engraved in skilfully executed serifed capital letters very similar to the lettering of inscriptions on stone from the last three centuries BC. The letter forms are most characteristic of the second half of the 2nd century BC, http://dlib.nyu.edu/awdl/isaw/isaw-papers/4/ It seems the features of the mechanism were right at the edge of engineering precision of the time. It would have been beyond the capability of Babylonian craftsmen of an earlier time. And notice, no Babylonian writing. Yes, there is evidence. But since you never believe any of it, why bother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tristen Posted February 17 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 9 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,367 Content Per Day: 0.63 Reputation: 1,340 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/26/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 17 9 hours ago, Scott Free said: I think the idea of the Earth being round or orbiting the Sun was part of a larger mindset that sometimes clashed with the ignorance inherent in government. Aristotle, Socrates and Galileo were all punished for offending the state. Galileo (the only one in your list under Christian authority) was not "punished" for claiming the Earth is round. Trying to conflate the 'shape-of-the-Earth' issue with the 'history of geocentric/heliocentric debate' issue only serves to muddy the conversation. Regardless - you are now aware that it is an error to characterize "Christians and church leaders of the Middle Ages" as typically thinking the Earth is flat - given that flat-Earthism was never a typical Christian belief. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tristen Posted February 17 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 9 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,367 Content Per Day: 0.63 Reputation: 1,340 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/26/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 17 9 hours ago, The Barbarian said: Lacking a way to express greater precision, the person writing the text put in numbers that amounted to a ratio of 3 I'm not convinced that ancient peoples couldn't express precise numbers when it was required. The word 'tithe' is an expression of fractions. Ancient peoples built some very complex structures - which would have required a thorough comprehension of fundamental mathematical concepts. 9 hours ago, The Barbarian said: If he had written it to be 3.14, he would have been only slightly less wrong It is not "wrong". It is only less precise than it could be. Due to the nature pi, this accusation could be leveled at anyone who has ever used pi. But it is semantically, mathematically incorrect to claim an imprecise representation of pi is "wrong". 9 hours ago, The Barbarian said: This illustrates the foolishness of getting caught up in incidental details, while missing the message God is actually giving us. Firstly, I don't think the argument supports this conclusion - since the "details" in this example are actually correct (albeit imprecise). More importantly, who gets to decide which "details" of God's Word are "incidental"? Are we giving ourselves permission to do that now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tristen Posted February 17 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 9 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,367 Content Per Day: 0.63 Reputation: 1,340 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/26/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 17 9 hours ago, Scott Free said: We are all as little children. When we claim to definitively understand the ways of the adult world it sounds a little silly. To say God is not talking down to us in our ignorance shows a lack of self-awareness. You have decided to completely ignore the implications of my argument, and persisted in repeating the same logical error. I made no "claim to definitively understand the ways of the adult world". We can therefore add "silly" to your growing list of unsupported Ad-hominem (fallacious) accusations against those who dare disagree with you. I did not ever "say God is not talking down to us". Therefore, we can add 'ignorant' and "a lack of self-awareness" to your growing list of unsupported Ad-hominem (fallacious) accusations against those who presume to disagree with you. The fact that you resort to Ad-hominem statements when someone disagrees with you shows that (ironically) you are the one who is being intractable. You are the one who thinks your position represents a definitive understanding of reality. You have this logic filter that automatically dismisses (rather than considers) alternative viewpoints. And in an ironic twist, you automatically attribute your own flaw to the one holding an opposing view. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Barbarian Posted February 17 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,051 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 969 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/20/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted February 17 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tristen said: I'm not convinced that ancient peoples couldn't express precise numbers when it was required. The word 'tithe' is an expression of fractions. Ancient peoples built some very complex structures - which would have required a thorough comprehension of fundamental mathematical concepts. Of course they could. The Babylonians, for example, expressed such numbers as ratios. I'm just saying that in Hebrew, there was no way to express decimals. I believe they followed the Egyptian practice of expressing fractions as a sum of unit fractions. Which wouldn't have been of much use for writing out pi. Of course, a tithe would be a unit fraction, hence easy in the Egyptian system. 1 hour ago, Tristen said: More importantly, who gets to decide which "details" of God's Word are "incidental"? Are we giving ourselves permission to do that now? For example, I'm pretty sure that God doesn't care what we think the value of pi is. But in the strict sense, imprecision is not "wrong." It certainly can lead to some difficulties in practice, however. Edited February 17 by The Barbarian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Free Posted February 17 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 88 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 1,276 Content Per Day: 0.62 Reputation: 289 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/15/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 17 1 hour ago, Tristen said: You have decided to completely ignore the implications of my argument, and persisted in repeating the same logical error. You are correct, I should of used Geocentric beliefs instead of flat-earth. I now know the flat-earth history was anti-catholic propaganda. Thank you, for pointing that out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tristen Posted February 17 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 9 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,367 Content Per Day: 0.63 Reputation: 1,340 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/26/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 17 7 hours ago, The Barbarian said: 9 hours ago, Tristen said: More importantly, who gets to decide which "details" of God's Word are "incidental"? Are we giving ourselves permission to do that now? For example, I'm pretty sure that God doesn't care what we think the value of pi is To me, the natural implication of this example is that God's Word can be trusted, even in the supposedly "incidental details". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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