Pax Posted October 30, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 961 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/30/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 30, 2005 It is time to have a nice friendly debate over the issue of Sola Scriptora. What is Sola Scriptora some of you may ask? This is the idea that all the information that we need to know for salvation is contained entirely in the Bible. This concept didn't even exist until Martin Luther decided he didn't want to be a Catholic Priest anymore and formed the Lutheran faith. Luther decided that he would change many theological doctrines including coming up with this idea that all we needed now was in the Bible. This of course couldn't be the case until he threw out several books that had been contained in the Bible for the previous 1,300 years. I of course don't buy into this notion and ask any person on here to prove to me and everyone else where it definantively states in the Bible that all we need to know is in the Bible. EricH, and Shiloh have both made cases to support this idea in other threads, but now I think it is time to bring this to the forfront for all to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 30, 2005 Share Posted October 30, 2005 It is time to have a nice friendly debate over the issue of Sola Scriptora. What is Sola Scriptora some of you may ask? This is the idea that all the information that we need to know for salvation is contained entirely in the Bible. This concept didn't even exist until Martin Luther decided he didn't want to be a Catholic Priest anymore and formed the Lutheran faith. Luther decided that he would change many theological doctrines including coming up with this idea that all we needed now was in the Bible. This of course couldn't be the case until he threw out several books that had been contained in the Bible for the previous 1,300 years. I of course don't buy into this notion and ask any person on here to prove to me and everyone else where it definantively states in the Bible that all we need to know is in the Bible. EricH, and Shiloh have both made cases to support this idea in other threads, but now I think it is time to bring this to the forfront for all to read. The onus is on you to demonstrate the insufficiency of Scripture. Not the insufficiency of those who interpret it, but the insufficiency of Scripture itself. 2Tim. 3:17 tells us that the Scriptures are sufficient to furnish the man of God unto ALL good works. It is up to you demonstrate why Paul was wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted October 30, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 30, 2005 Instead of defining sola scriptura as the only means for inspiration, let us define it to mean the Bible is the final authority on all theological matters. That is the only way you can have a true debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shane Posted October 30, 2005 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 119 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 30, 2005 The onus is on you to demonstrate the insufficiency of Scripture. Not the insufficiency of those who interpret it, but the insufficiency of Scripture itself. 2Tim. 3:17 tells us that the Scriptures are sufficient to furnish the man of God unto ALL good works. It is up to you demonstrate why Paul was wrong. Well said Shiloh. I would hope to hear a resounding AMEN on the board but somehow I think I might be dissapointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giaour Posted October 30, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 179 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,941 Content Per Day: 0.55 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/28/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/08/1964 Share Posted October 30, 2005 Amen Shiloh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilgrim7 Posted October 30, 2005 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 635 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/07/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 30, 2005 Not to worry Pax, shalom, peace, Although Sola Scriptura is all that is needed, It requires the Holy Spirit, not a mortal man, to reveals it to us. The Scriptures are a closed book to those without the guidance of the one who inspired the Scriptures. This includes Jew, Greek, Pagan, Protestant and Catholic. It includes blue colar worker, Professional, scholar, Pastor, Priest, Pope, theologian, evangelist, Cardinal and bishop, even you and I and every one on this board. Much of Protestantism does not really believe in 'Sola Scriptura', its a nice doctrine to espsouse and sounds very religious. I could quote hundreds of Scriptures that many don't believe and don't follow. In fact in almost every post I quote Scriptures which some argue with and make of none effect with human reasoning. To some 'Sola Scriptura' means only the verses, and most in Romans, that speak of no works required to be justified or forgiven. These are used to negate and ignore the rest of 'Sola Scriptura' which speaks of the race, the fight, the endurance required to be glorified and taken to heaven. I used to be a catholic. So I know of what I speak. This issue of understanding the Scriptures is what led to the establishment of a Pope. Without the Spirit there was so much division over what was truth, that they decided to make him the ultimate authority. But as William Tyndale said, before he was burned at the stake by the 'Church', truth is measured by the Word and the word is interpreted by the Holy Spirit. It is the word that judges the man and not the man that judges the word. Jesus is the living Word of God. He is the One Who spoke it to Holy men through the Holy Spirit and He is the one who interprets it through His Holy Spirit to men who are made holy. He doesn't need a man to do His job. Jesus said: Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Mt 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. Jesus explains the Scriptures: Lk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? Lk 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me. Lk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, The Apostles say: Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience (endurance) and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, (You see that it is a mystery that must be revealed by the Holy Spirit and not man.) 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: (The Scriptures lead us into obedience to the Word.) The interpretation of man is worthless: 2Pet 3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. (without the guidance of the Holy Spirit we are sure to wrest or twist the Scriptures to our own destruction.) Here we see that Jesus leads into obedience to His every Word. Much of Protestantism uses a few Scriptures that seem to speak of an easy or wide smooth road of 'only believe with your mind' to negate all the rest of Scripture that speaks of works, obedience, holiness, striving and the war that the 'soldiers of Christ' are to fight. Yet has Jesus widened the 'narrow way'? That would be a change or actually a subtraction from the Scriptures. Honestly, I can't understand why anyone would want more than the Scriptures when so many don't even want to do what is already written. My advice is when you are doing all that is written, then ask God to show you more. When you have brought 'every thought into captivity to Jesus' as the Scriptures say and have reached the point where you live by every word of God, then look for more. Sanctification is the WORK of a lifetime. We all are going to be judged on what we did with 'Sola Scriptura' not what man says. Jn 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 10:27 My sheep hear my voice (in 'Sola Scriptura'), and I know them, and they follow me: 10:28 And I give unto them (those who hear my voice and follow me) eternal life; and THEY shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. God bless and keep you, Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiosh Posted October 30, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 73 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,663 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/20/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 30, 2005 It is time to have a nice friendly debate over the issue of Sola Scriptora. What is Sola Scriptora some of you may ask? This is the idea that all the information that we need to know for salvation is contained entirely in the Bible. This concept didn't even exist until Martin Luther decided he didn't want to be a Catholic Priest anymore and formed the Lutheran faith. Luther decided that he would change many theological doctrines including coming up with this idea that all we needed now was in the Bible. This of course couldn't be the case until he threw out several books that had been contained in the Bible for the previous 1,300 years. I of course don't buy into this notion and ask any person on here to prove to me and everyone else where it definantively states in the Bible that all we need to know is in the Bible. EricH, and Shiloh have both made cases to support this idea in other threads, but now I think it is time to bring this to the forfront for all to read. The onus is on you to demonstrate the insufficiency of Scripture. Not the insufficiency of those who interpret it, but the insufficiency of Scripture itself. 2Tim. 3:17 tells us that the Scriptures are sufficient to furnish the man of God unto ALL good works. It is up to you demonstrate why Paul was wrong. NO ONE is challenging the truth of the Bible. NO ONE is saying that Paul is wrong. We all agree that "all Scripture is inspired by God, and profitable for teaching,for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work". Amen. NO ONE is arguing with this. The difference is in how you interpret the passage. It does not say that Scripture is the ONLY means by which a man of God is equipped. In any case, Paul is referring to the Old Testament here, as the New Testament did not yet exist. So if you want to use your understanding of this passage, we should look ONLY to the OLD Testament to equip us fully for every good work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiosh Posted October 30, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 73 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,663 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/20/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 30, 2005 Instead of defining sola scriptura as the only means for inspiration, let us define it to mean the Bible is the final authority on all theological matters. That is the only way you can have a true debate. Well, SJ, that's not exactly the same debate. While I do not hold to "sola Scriptura", I DO agree that in the case of a conflict the Bible IS the final authority. The issue is... what about those things that are not made clear in the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted October 30, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 30, 2005 Instead of defining sola scriptura as the only means for inspiration, let us define it to mean the Bible is the final authority on all theological matters. That is the only way you can have a true debate. Well, SJ, that's not exactly the same debate. While I do not hold to "sola Scriptura", I DO agree that in the case of a conflict the Bible IS the final authority. The issue is... what about those things that are not made clear in the Bible. If you adhere to that then you cannot believe in the sacred tradition that the Roman Catholic church presents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 30, 2005 Share Posted October 30, 2005 It is time to have a nice friendly debate over the issue of Sola Scriptora. What is Sola Scriptora some of you may ask? This is the idea that all the information that we need to know for salvation is contained entirely in the Bible. This concept didn't even exist until Martin Luther decided he didn't want to be a Catholic Priest anymore and formed the Lutheran faith. Luther decided that he would change many theological doctrines including coming up with this idea that all we needed now was in the Bible. This of course couldn't be the case until he threw out several books that had been contained in the Bible for the previous 1,300 years. I of course don't buy into this notion and ask any person on here to prove to me and everyone else where it definantively states in the Bible that all we need to know is in the Bible. EricH, and Shiloh have both made cases to support this idea in other threads, but now I think it is time to bring this to the forfront for all to read. The onus is on you to demonstrate the insufficiency of Scripture. Not the insufficiency of those who interpret it, but the insufficiency of Scripture itself. 2Tim. 3:17 tells us that the Scriptures are sufficient to furnish the man of God unto ALL good works. It is up to you demonstrate why Paul was wrong. NO ONE is challenging the truth of the Bible. NO ONE is saying that Paul is wrong. We all agree that "all Scripture is inspired by God, and profitable for teaching,for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work". Amen. NO ONE is arguing with this. The difference is in how you interpret the passage. It does not say that Scripture is the ONLY means by which a man of God is equipped. In any case, Paul is referring to the Old Testament here, as the New Testament did not yet exist. So if you want to use your understanding of this passage, we should look ONLY to the OLD Testament to equip us fully for every good work. Yes, you are challenging the truth of the Bible. Here is Pax's incorrect rendering of the doctrine of Sola Scriptura: This is the idea that all the information that we need to know for salvation is contained entirely in the Bible. That is not even what Sola Scriptura is. Sola Scriptura is the belief that : The Bible comes directly from God The Bible is the sole necessity for New Testament faith and practice in the life of the believer The Bible is the final word on matters of doctrine. The Bible is the only pure source of truth guaranteed infallible given to man. The Bible is the only 100% reliable plumline for determining truth. You are not quoting 2 Tm. 3:17 correctly. Paul says in this verse, that the Scriptures make us complete and thoroughly (completely, Gk.) furnished unto ALL good works. If we are completely furnished by the Scriptures, then there is need for nothing else to complete our understanding. Again, it is up to you explain why there is need for more than the Bible where salvation is concerned. It is up to you to demonstrate why the Scriptures are not sufficient for us where salvation is concerned. If you cannot demonstrate the insufficiency of Scripture, then there is no threat to Sola Scriptura. Yes, Paul was thinking primarily of the the OT, and the Torah in particular, but we have Peter's testimony in Scripture that Paul's writings were Scripture as well. Not only so, but we have the advantage of interpreting Scripture with 20/20 vision regarding what is, or is not Scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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