Rev 16:18 suggests an Old Earth??

[FreeGrace]

34 minutes ago, RdJ said:

This is the [a]history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, 5 before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground; 6 but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground. NKJV

Key is "when THEY were CREATED" in v.4.  Followed by "in the DAY that the Lord God made the earth and heavens".  Bingo.  God created heavens and earth "in the DAY".  Couldn't be more clear.  Gen 1:1 is THAT day.

34 minutes ago, RdJ said:

4  yThese are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.

5 When no bush of the field1 was yet in the land 2 and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up—for the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground ESV

Same.

34 minutes ago, RdJ said:

It was about Job 38:4-6

4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand.

5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it?

6 On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone—

Regarding the "foundation" in v.4

Strong's Concordance

yasad: to establish, found, fix

Original Word: יָסַד
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: yasad
Phonetic Spelling: (yaw-sad')
Definition: to establish, found, fix

I don't see this as God creating the earth in stages.  God established the earth the DAY He created it.

 

 

[RdJ]

Lol the idea came from a Dutch guy named Simon Bisschop.

 

https://www.gaptheory.net/history-of-the-gap-theory/

While the gap theory was popularised by Thomas Chalmers in a lecture in 1814, the idea of a long period of time between Gen 1:1-2 was first introduced by the Dutch theologian Simon Episcopius (1583-1643) to accommodate the fall of the angels

[FreeGrace]

31 minutes ago, RdJ said:

I Googled him.

He developed the theory of uniformitarianism. The theory of uniformitarianism states that the processes by which current geological features were created were slow, steady, and constant.

OK.  Anyway, evolution had no part in the "theory" of a time gap.  It wasn't developed in counter to evolution.  

31 minutes ago, RdJ said:

Ah. But that's just what he assumed, that the plates moved slow and YEC says it was not slow steady and constant but quick and caused by the flood.

Actually, we have no details between Gen 1:1 and 2, so everyone assumes their biases.

I go with what I have found the Hebrew words mean, by comparing all 10 uses of "tohu" in the OT.  What is doesn't mean is "formless".  That is a huge hang up for the YEC.  That "state" doesn't exist.  If an object can be seen, it HAS form.

31 minutes ago, RdJ said:

They can't prove that it is so old. It's based on their assumptions that there was no flood of Noah and that it all went gradually and calm.

I don't think any scientist even considered Noah's flood.  And there are very accurate instruments that measure the speed of light, etc.  

31 minutes ago, RdJ said:

My brother once said, in the time I believed GAP:

I hardly dare say it and know it sounds stupid, but I believe YEC.

Why did he once believe there was a time gap?  And what changed his mind?

31 minutes ago, RdJ said:

19th Century geologist Charles Lyell and Charles Darwin thought that there were no mass extinctions: rather, what we thought were Cuvier's "revolutions" were no more than extended gaps in the rock record, making the gradual loss and addition of species at the ordinary rate appear to be the sudden loss and appearance.

Please don't put Lyell and Darwin together.  Lyell wrote about the geologica columns in 1796 and Darwin wasn't born until 1804.

31 minutes ago, RdJ said:

Lyell argued that the formation of Earth's crust took place through countless small changes occurring over vast periods of time, all according to known natural laws. His "uniformitarian" proposal was that the forces molding the planet today have operated continuously throughout its history. He also wrongly assumed that these causes must have acted only with the same intensities now observed, which would rule out asteroid impacts and the like.

Seems like a lot of people assume things.  :) 

31 minutes ago, RdJ said:

Darwin read Lyell's landmark text while on the Beagle, and was much inspired by it. 

"on the beagle"?? 

btw, ol' Darwin was real mad at God for "letting his young daughter die of some disease".  I think he had an axe to grind.

31 minutes ago, RdJ said:

"The present is the key to the past," was the motto of uniformitarian science. And Darwin, greatly influenced by Lyell, extended that principle to biology.

The point is that neither Lyell or Chalmers were at all by Darwin's idiot theory, since Darwin was barely out of diapers when Chalmers wrote about gap.

[FreeGrace]

2 minutes ago, RdJ said:

Lol the idea came from a Dutch guy named Simon Bisschop.

 

https://www.gaptheory.net/history-of-the-gap-theory/

While the gap theory was popularised by Thomas Chalmers in a lecture in 1814, the idea of a long period of time between Gen 1:1-2 was first introduced by the Dutch theologian Simon Episcopius (1583-1643) to accommodate the fall of the angels

Well, this even MORE proves that Darwin's nonsense evolution played no part in gap.

Unfortunately, many YEC claim that evolution did play a part.

So, where did Chalmers and Episcopius get their ideas about a time gap from?  Lyell wasn't even around when Simon wrote what he did.

Both got their ideas from the Bible.  Maybe they were Hebrew scholars.

Thanks for the info on Simon.  The sources I had didn't mention him.

[RdJ]

33 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

 

Why did he once believe there was a time gap?  And what changed his mind?

 

No I believed it then. He didn't. I believed it because it sounds very plausible, but because of the other Bible texts I now think it's young.

[FreeGrace]

36 minutes ago, RdJ said:

No I believed it then. He didn't. I believed it because it sounds very plausible, but because of the other Bible texts I now think it's young.

What would the "other texts" be?  The entire key is v.2 and what the Hebrew actually says, which can easily be determined by how all 10 uses of tohu are translated in the OT, and especially Jer 4 and Isa 34, which describe great destruction of the land, and tohu wabohu is used in both.

[RdJ]

1 minute ago, FreeGrace said:

What would the "other texts" be?  The entire key is v.2 and what the Hebrew actually says, which can easily be determined by how all 10 uses of tohu are translated in the OT, and especially Jer 4 and Isa 34, which describe great destruction of the land, and tohu wabohu is used in both.

No wait it was when they found soft tissue in a dinosaur and then came up with some vague explanation. Then I didn't believe it anymore that that was from before Adam. That's recent, from the flood. And recently they found liquid blood in a foal.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/scientists-extracted-liquid-blood-42000-year-old-foal-found-siberian-permafrost-180971979/

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, RdJ said:

No wait it was when they found soft tissue in a dinosaur and then came up with some vague explanation. Then I didn't believe it anymore that that was from before Adam. That's recent, from the flood. And recently they found liquid blood in a foal.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/scientists-extracted-liquid-blood-42000-year-old-foal-found-siberian-permafrost-180971979/

So you believe in a young earth from liquid blood in a 42,000 y/o foal?

When a body is frozen in an ice pack, it can last for a very long time.  And where is the human history of an ice age following the worldwide flood?

[RdJ]

43 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

So you believe in a young earth from liquid blood in a 42,000 y/o foal?

When a body is frozen in an ice pack, it can last for a very long time.  And where is the human history of an ice age following the worldwide flood?

https://www.icr.org/article/4788

The Ice Age likely occurred soon after the Flood, perhaps in the days of Job, for references to ice and snow abound in his book (see, for example, Job 38:29). Job didn't live in a glaciated area, but he evidently knew about icy conditions farther north.

The key to the Ice Age was temperature--not cold, but warm. Ice comes from snow, and snow from moisture in the air, which in turn comes through evaporation, which comes from warm water. The Flood oceans were quite warm due to the introduction of huge volumes of superheated water from the "fountains of the great deep" (Genesis 7:11) and frictional heating by shifting continents, etc.

Warmer water evaporates much more rapidly than cold. The immediate post-Flood time was marked by frequent major storms fed by excessive evaporation. Polar ice caps built up as water vapor condensed and fell as snow. Pressure packed it into ice, which spread as glaciers. The earth was not completely frozen, but the polar ice caps were much larger then. Large-scale volcanism in the Flood's latter stages clouded the atmosphere with volcanic dust, reflecting solar radiation back into space. This prohibited snow and ice from melting.

The Ice Age commenced and continued until the oceans gave up their excess heat and the atmosphere cleared. Water trapped as ice on the continents lowered the sea level by an estimated four to six hundred feet, no doubt exposing the continental shelves. During the Ice Age, all the continents were probably connected by land bridges.

What happened when the Ice Age ended? The volume of ice returned to liquid form and reentered the ocean, raising sea level and drowning all areas near the ocean. Today, we find numerous remains of civilizations that evidently had been built in coastal areas soon after the Flood.

In recent years such ruins were found in the Black Sea, leading many to speculate that Noah's Flood was responsible. But this could not be. Ignored were waterborne sediments thousands of feet thick underneath the Black Sea that are the legacy of Noah's Flood. The ruins were built after Noah, but were inundated by major flooding as the rising Ice Age meltwater overtopped the natural dam near today’s Istanbul. 

 

https://biblearchaeology.org/research/chronological-categories/flood-of-noah/2887-making-sense-of-the-days-of-peleg

These megalithic ruins demand to be placed within an historical context, so Hancock’s attempt is worthwhile. But he is handicapped in seeking an explanation because he has apparently ruled out examining them within a biblical framework. Yet even those who know their Bibles well find these structures a challenge to understand. They cannot be placed into an antediluvian timeframe (that is, before the Flood), since beneath them lay fossil-bearing sedimentary rocks that had previously been deposited by the waters of Noah’s universal Flood. Finding a satisfying post-Flood solution has been difficult as well. These structures, though widely scattered around the world, share features that indicate a common cultural origin; for example, stones weighing many tons were used, having very tight joints and often cut in asymmetrical shapes, and requiring unknown technology to move and place them. Such a common cultural origin seems unlikely if one holds the view that mankind dispersed from Babel (Gn 11:1–9) into a world where the Americas were already widely separated from Eurasia, creating formidible barriers to the free interchange of culture and ideas. It is no wonder Hancock considers these megalithic ruins a great mystery. A similar mystery is the presence of pyramids in Mesoamerica, not unlike those in Egypt.

 

Job 38

From whose womb comes the ice?
And the frost of heaven, who gives it birth?
30 The waters harden like stone,
And the surface of the deep is frozen.

 

https://saysthelord.wordpress.com/2009/12/14/pangea-how-god-split-the-continents/

 

If the continents split after the flood, there must be some writing about it, just like the world wide flood stories.

https://answersingenesis.org/the-flood/flood-legends/flood-legends-americas-part-3/

The great civilizations of Mexico all knew about the flood. The Toltecs had historical paintings and traditions that told of an ancient flood, which they said occurred 1716 years after the creation of the world (this is within 100 years of the biblical timeframe). Only a few escaped the flood, floating inside a “toplipetlacali,” an enclosed vessel. After the flood, they said that “men multiplied and made a very high zacuali … which means the highest tower, at which they sought to find shelter when the Second World would be destroyed. In time, the languages were changed and, not understanding each other, the people went to different parts of the world.” They said they arrived in Mexico “520 years after the flood had passed, which are five ages.”

 

 

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Edited April 12 by RdJ

[FreeGrace]

46 minutes ago, RdJ said:

https://www.icr.org/article/4788

The Ice Age likely occurred soon after the Flood, perhaps in the days of Job, for references to ice and snow abound in his book (see, for example, Job 38:29). Job didn't live in a glaciated area, but he evidently knew about icy conditions farther north.

I believe the words of Gen 1:2 indicate that the earth was packed deeply in ice before God restored it.  In fact, to be restored, the ice pack had to be removed.

It would seem, though without clear verses that describe, that God packed the whole earth in ice to keep someone or something off of it.  But I won't speculate.