Rev 16:18 suggests an Old Earth??

[FreeGrace]

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

FreeGrace said:

Said by a religionist who has no facts,

I have the Bible.

And a very poorly translated one at that!  You've shown total disdain for what the Hebrew words really mean, even though I have proved it over and over.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  That's good enough for me.

And that's the fact.  What is good enough for me is knowing what the Hebrew really means.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  I also have all the articles and commentaries from those who have studies the false claims of gap theory proponents, including your improper translation of the Hebrew language.

Sure.  You've found others of that same religion who have written nutty stuff.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

And you only posted the definitions you like.

No, when I provide definitions, I copy everything.  But you wouldn't know that, because you don't do any research at all.  You just read the writings of others in your young earth religion.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

And you don't think it strange that after 57 centuries, scientists start claiming an old earth and suddenly there is a new translation to support the claim?

Scientists studied earth age WAY before Darwin was born.  

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

1 Timothy 6:

3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

Only to those who lack understanding.

If only you were aware that this passage describes yourself.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

No, in all but a handful of new age Bibles the words are "Without form and void."

Your own source proves that every object HAS form, since we live in a 3 dimensional world and every object has 3 dimensions.  To be 'formless' means no form.  Unless the word is used in comparison to other similar objects that lack what is characteristic for that "formless" object.

And I gave a perfect example, which you didn't even try to refute.

To accept "formless and void" for Gen 1:2 is the peak of fallacy, esp since we have the other 2 verses that have both words, and they describe total destruction of land.  

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  You claim you're right, but most experts say you're wrong.

No, most experts don't even know me.  So you are wrong.  They spew their young earth religion, just as you do.  So what?
Aren't you aware of 1 John 2:19 - We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. and Rev 12:9 - The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Satan has been quite successful in deceiving the whole world.  That's why quoting numbers of who agrees with whom is folly.  Polls mostly reveal how successful Satan is.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Your false doctrine was invented in the late 18th century to try and find agreement with the old earth crowd.

Your opinion is without merit.  Earth age isn't a doctrine, but exists only in your young earth religion.  It is simply a fact.  And Gen 1:2 clearly indicates the earth was created long before Adam was.  That is my only point.  The Hebrew supports my point.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  That is an indisputable fact.

The comment is delusional.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Of course that's a lie.  The NAS, your go-to version, was published in 1971.

So that makes it wrong?  More delusion from your religion.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Which is why very few here believe you.

Have you taken a poll?  Where do you get your opinions from?

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Again, that's a lie.  Nobody interpreted it that way before the late 18th century.

Of course it obviously never occurred to you that it wasn't until then that MUCH OLDER manuscripts were found of the Bible, much closer to the autograph.  And, of course, you have to ignore the Septuagint, written in 300 BC, which translated "tohu" more reasonably than the KJV.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Let's pick one of your newer Bibles, the NRSN, published in 2021. "The earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters."

Idiocy reigns!

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Picking and choosing the minority of translations you like is as dishonest as other posters taking fragments of a verse out of context and pretending they mean something totally different.

Why you continue to ignore the plain fact only reveals the depth of your heart and false religion.   I researched ALL the verses containing "tohu" and shared all the ways they were translated.  

Why don't you take that list of 10, and research all 32 English translations to see how all the translations rendered "tohu"?

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  FreeGrace said:

What God declared "very good" in Gen 1:31 refers to the restored earth.

Nope.  That's heresy.

So a different view on earth age equals heresy?  

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

You've proved you have no comprehension what "without form" means.

No, I fully understand what they mean in the other 2 texts where they occur.  They describe total destruction.  Why don't YOU understand what they mean?  I've shown you over and over.

I guess you didn't bother to actually read Jer 4 or Isa 34.  

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  That's it.  All the rest of us understand it.

Oh, there's that poll of yours.  1 John 5:19 and Rev 12:9 warn against polls.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

The article was written by a Hebrew expert, not I.  Hence the source.

Aren't you aware that there are closed minded people of all brands?

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

That's all you've done.  Repeatedly.  And repeatedly.

Right.  Show what "tohu wabohu" really means.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Nope.  You've repeated the same bunk you've said over and over, while I've posted multiple experts proving everything you have posted is wrong. 

"proving"??  Really!  No, they have just given their opinions, just like yourself.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

In fact, I even posted Genesis 1:2 from a modern Bible I would never read just to prove to you that even today, nearly all translations disagree with the things you are claiming.

Like I said, either lazy or stupid.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Someone sold you a big fat lie, and that has become the great love of your life.

Your opinions are without any merit.  My view comes directly from how "tohu" is used in all its uses in the OT plus how "tohu wabohu" are used in the 3 times they occur.

The words cannot be applied to original creation.  That would be foolish.

But, your young earth religion trumps all facts an truth.  Go worship.

[FreeGrace]

59 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

That's why we should post quotes from the Bible in full context, to avoid the risk of teaching falsely.

Oh, my goodness!!!!  What a statement, from one who so vehemently rejects "full context" where "tohu wabohu" occur in texts that warn of coming GREAT destruction on the land.

Wow.  Are you hyper-hypocritical, or WHAT?!

I've proven from Jer 4 and Isa 34 what "tohu wabohu" describe, and you simply ignore the "full context" and hold to the unreal idea that the earth was created 'formless'.

[Feedmysheep]

On 4/8/2024 at 6:16 AM, RdJ said:

There were mountains already when the flood of Noah came, so you could think they were formed way earlier with plate tectonics after satan fell but this sounds like the start of God forming the earth, just like Job 38:

Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, Or ever You had formed the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.
Psalms 90:1‭-‬2 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/psa.90.1-2.NKJV

 

And when satan fell he was thrown on the earth. Gap says that there was a different species of humans and kings and that he was trading with them. That makes no sense. This is about the future:

“Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you. “You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth In the sight of all who saw you. All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; You have become a horror, And shall be no more forever.” ’ ”
Ezekiel 28:17‭-‬19 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/ezk.28.17-19.NKJV

It's also in Revelation.

 

 

Are you saying that God used the earth as a kind of garbage dispossal place to discard Satan?  

I mean do you believe God created a world for man and then quickly afterward threw Satan away to that place to get rid of him ? 

 

Edited April 19 by Feedmysheep

[RdJ]

59 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

Are you saying that God used the earth as a kind of garbage dispossal place to discard Satan?  

I mean do you believe God created a world for man and then quickly afterward threw Satan away to that place to get rid of him ? 

 

Lol yes I was also wondering if there couldn't be another garbage can for him further away, but the beast comes up from the earth, pit, Jesus was in the heart of the earth, angels who sinned with humans are in chains in the earth. Who knows. Maybe the corner stone is the middle and turned into magma when he was thrown on it.

It is a nice way to make them a footstool though.

[FreeGrace]

13 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

And you don't think it strange that after 57 centuries, scientists start claiming an old earth and suddenly there is a new translation to support the claim?

What I think is really strange is your thinking that there was any translation 57 centuries ago.

In FACT, Moses didn't write Genesis UNTIL about 1450-1400 BC.  So from then until now isn't even close to 57 centuries.  

You need to get your facts straight before you post such irrelevant and erroneous stuff.

The closest translation to what Moses wrote would be the Septuagint, written about 300 BC.  And they translated "tohu" in Gen 1:2 as "unsightly".

Is that how you want to go with original creation??

I give God MUCH MORE credit than you do, for sure.  God's creations are all very good.  And beautiful.  Hardly "unsightly".

So, you just can't get around the FACTS.  The closest translation to what Moses wrote doesn't fit original creation.  And the contradiction that the KJV creates with Idsa 45:18 is stunning, and you just seem to wave it off as meaningless.

Since  you still believe objects can be "formless", please cite at least one example of any object that doesn't have 3 dimensions.  That would put the debate to an end.

Can you do it?

[RdJ]

Revelation 21

Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.

The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine [l]in it, for the [m]glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations [n]of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor [o]into it. 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there).

Night and dark is/represents bad.

 

Edited April 19 by RdJ

[RV_Wizard]

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

And a very poorly translated one at that!

That's a lie.

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

You've shown total disdain for what the Hebrew words really mean

That's another lie.  You only like a slim minority of modern texts which use definitions twistable enough for you to make your claims.  As it was shown to you, 86% of all translations INCLUDING the most recent one agree with the original Hebrew words, without for and void.  Who made YOU the authority of what the words really mean, why should ANYONE believe your claims over the actual experts who transcribed the texts?

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Scientists studied earth age WAY before Darwin was born.

New flash: the creation was a supernatural event.  Science cannot study the supernatural.

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

we live in a 3 dimensional world and every object has 3 dimensions.

Solid objects, yes, but liquids and gases conform to their surroundings and thus have no form of their own.

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

To accept "formless and void" for Gen 1:2 is the peak of fallacy,

To reject words you can't comprehend is a classic display of ignorance.

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Satan has been quite successful in deceiving the whole world.

Starting in the late 18th century, Satan came up with what he called ruin/reconstruction or gap theory.  He certainly ensnared a number of people in that heresy.  Interestingly, you never answered why it is that virtually nobody in the church questioned the age of the earth until geologists began to claim long ages.

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

It is simply a fact.

The correct term is "heresy."

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

So that makes it wrong?

It makes it new age doctrine.  Do I have to explain to you how years are used to record the passage of time?

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

it wasn't until then that MUCH OLDER manuscripts were found of the Bible,

Which explains why the latest and most accurate transcription says "without form and void," right?  Your claim would only make sense if there was a consensus with new age interpretations, but most concur with the original.

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Idiocy reigns!

As you well demonstrate.  Everyone's wrong but you, because your pastor told you new age bunk and you swallowed the lie whole.

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

So a different view on earth age equals heresy?  

No.  teaching things contrary to the Bible is heresy.  You can have any opinion you want, but when you post it as fact it's called false teaching.

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Aren't you aware that there are closed minded people of all brands?

You clearly didn't understand his evidences, and the proofs why the words could not ever mean what you claim.

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

My view comes directly from...

They come from a Satanic heresy compiled in the late 18th century.  There are volumes written against it.

 

[RV_Wizard]

9 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

What I think is really strange is your thinking that there was any translation 57 centuries ago.

Count 40 centuries from Adam to Christ, and add 17.  Adam knew the truth.  He was there.  When Moses wrote the Torah, the Jews knew his words were true because, like all ancient cultures, the stories were handed down through the generations.  Moses was an educated man, and doubtless became aware of Jewish history through his people long before writing anything.  That's why the Torah was so readily accepted; the people were already familiar with the contents.

9 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I give God MUCH MORE credit than you do, for sure.  God's creations are all very good.  And beautiful.  Hardly "unsightly".

First, "unsightly" is your word, second, it's taken from Genesis 1:2 and nothing but trees and grass lived on the earth before Genesis 1:20.  Grass wasn't even there until verse 9.  Once again, you demonstrate a complete lack of understanding.

10 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Since  you still believe objects can be "formless", please cite at least one example of any object that doesn't have 3 dimensions.  That would put the debate to an end.

That's another lie.  I already did and you STILL demonstrate your inability to comprehend the meaning.  Things that are formless do not have their own form.  Their shape is either in flux or determined by the surrounding environment, not the thing itself.  I will give you examples but that won't stop your uneducated commentary.  Ready?

Air, propane, methane, petroleum vapor, natural gas, water, milk, Kool Aide, soft drinks, saline solutions, beer, wine,  Gloop and Gleep the formless, fearless wonders, bird droppings, liberal brains, Casper the ghost, liquefied Jello, clouds, Radon, argon, Calgon, soy sauce, pickle juice, blood, steam, poorly cooked oatmeal, chicken broth and the Blob.

Case closed.  You lose. 

[RdJ]

https://www.livescience.com/a-dark-big-bang-may-have-flooded-the-universe-with-invisible-matter-new-study-proposes

Scientists see no evidence for the existence of dark matter until far later in the evolution of the universe, after the elusive substance had enough time to exert gravitational influence, so there's no need for it to have filled the universe in the Hot Big Bang alongside normal matter. Plus, because dark matter does not interact with normal matter, it might have had its own "Dark" Big Bang, the researchers claim.

Job 38

“Where is the way to the dwelling of light?
And darkness, where is its place,
20 That you may take it to its territory,
That you may know the paths to its home?
21 Do you know it, because you were born then,
Or because the number of your days is great?

 

https://daviddflowers.com/tag/warfare-worldview/

 

Have you ever heard of dark matter and dark energy? If you hold to the Warfare Worldview—that sometime in the primordial cosmos there was an angelic rebellion against God—you might find this interesting.

Dark matter was first postulated due to the gravitational force of galaxies (or lack thereof) which couldn’t be explained by the visible mass of objects in any system. Therefore, it became clear that there is an invisible, ordering force holding space together. Hence, the term “dark” matter.

On the other hand, dark energy is an unseen force that works against the ordering power of dark matter. No, this isn’t science fiction. It’s happening.

“For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.” Paul, Ephesians 6:12 NIV

Astronomers and theoretical physicists state that both dark matter and dark energy once worked together, from the moment of the Big Bang to be precise, but dark energy began accelerating expansion and working against the ordering forces of dark matter around 5 billion years ago.

“…the expansion rate of the cosmos began speeding up about 5 billion to 6 billion years ago, like a roller coaster zooming down a track. That is when astronomers believe that dark energy’s repulsive force overtook gravity’s attractive grip.” Adam Riess, prof of physics & astronomy at Johns Hopkins University

In other words, dark energy is working to rip space apart and repel the unifying “gravitational” forces of dark matter. These are the scientific facts. And this blog post is my theological interpretation of those facts.

So, what I find most fascinating is how close this event—a war in the heavens—is to the formation of planet Earth, some 4.6 billion years ago.

Could this war between dark matter and dark energy be evidence of the spiritual war that eventually caused tohu wa bohu (chaos and destruction) upon the earth, impacting the evolution of life as we know it?

 

Leaving out the billions of years:

what I find most fascinating is how close this event—a war in the heavens—is to the formation of planet Earth,

So if there is evidence that it happened quickly after the creation of the universe and before the creation of the earth there's the proof that there was no second creation before Adam with dinosaurs that was destroyed by a flood.

 

Edited April 20 by RdJ

[RdJ]

Yesterday I was thinking: Job!!!!! Why didn't you just ask? Hey yes sorry God I know nothing and will be quiet but since You know do tell me how You did it. This was the perfect occasion to ask.

Edited April 20 by RdJ