Rev 16:18 suggests an Old Earth??

[RdJ]

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

bird droppings, liberal brains

🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂

[RV_Wizard]

9 minutes ago, RdJ said:

Yesterday I was thinking: Job!!!!! Why didn't you just ask? Hey yes sorry God I know nothing and will be quiet but since You know do tell me how You did it.

Can you imagine going back in time and telling early tent dwellers about modern technology, how the solar system functions and what it's really like on the moon?  How would they react?  There are things in the Bible that we now understand that were a complete mystery to people at the time.

Biblical Statement	Science Then	Science Now
Earth is a sphere (Is. 40:22).	Earth’s a flat disk.	Earth is a sphere
Number of stars exceeds a billion (Jer. 33:22).	Number of stars totals 1,100	Number of stars exceeds a billion
Every star is different (1 Cor 15:41).	All stars are the same.	Every star is different.
Light is in motion (Job 38:19-20).	Light is fixed in place.	Light is in motion.
Air has weight (Job 28:25).	Air is weightless.	Air has weight.
Winds blow in cyclones (Eccl. 1:6).	Winds blow straight.	Winds blow in cyclones.
Blood is a source of life and healing (Lev. 17:11).	Sick people must bled.	Blood is a source of life and healing.

[FreeGrace]

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  FreeGrace said:

And a very poorly translated one at that!

That's a lie.

Seems you can't handle the truth.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  FreeGrace said:

You've shown total disdain for what the Hebrew words really mean

That's another lie.

Face the truth.  We KNOW what "tohu wabohu" describes from Jer 4 and Isa 34.

Yet, you ignore how Jer and Isa used "tohu wabohu" and claim the 2 words were used for CREATION in Gen 1:2.  Preposterous!!

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  You only like a slim minority of modern texts which use definitions twistable enough for you to make your claims.

What I like is the truth.  Trying to defend what you believe by a vote is ridiculous.  I've already shown how that has worked out.  1 John 5:19 and Rev 12:9 tell the whole story.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  As it was shown to you, 86% of all translations INCLUDING the most recent one agree with the original Hebrew words, without for and void.

And "formless" doesn't exist, except in your mind.  The source YOU quoted about 2 and 3 dimensions PROVED you wrong.  God created a 3 dimensional universe.  Yet you continue to argue for objects that are formless.  How does that work in a 3 dimensional world?  You can't give even ONE example of an object that has no form.  That isn't rational.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Who made YOU the authority of what the words really mean

Oh, just HOW they are used throughout the Bible.  But that's not enough for you, even though you have NO evidence at all for your young earth dogma, oh, and "democracy".  "more translations agree with me than with you" kind of argumentation.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

why should ANYONE believe your claims over the actual experts who transcribed the texts?

No one should believe me.  Everyone should believe the Bible and how words are used throughout Scripture.  I'm just pointing out how words ARE used elsewhere.  I hope everyone who reads this thread will do their own homework and see for themselves how "tohu wabohu" are used elsewhere.  They will find the truth for themselves, unless they also worship at the altar of young earth dogma.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

New flash: the creation was a supernatural event.  Science cannot study the supernatural.

Actually, it can and DOES.  Do you live under a rock or something?  Maybe a cave?  You need to get out more.  In fact, the Bible REFUTES your opinion here.

Rom 1:19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.  20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

btw, this definitely includes YOU.  You are without excuse for your nonsense belief in formlessness in a 3 dimensional world, and how "tohu wabohu" is used in the Bible.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Solid objects, yes, but liquids and gases conform to their surroundings and thus have no form of their own.

Not talking about liquids/gas. We're talking about the earth, a planet.  Why you insist that God's creation of the earth was done in baby steps is beyond reason.  God is more than able to create the entire universe complete and finished, in one breath.

He had no reason to create in baby steps.  

But the restoration is different.  He was doing that for man.  The 7th day is significant for man.  This isn't difficult to understand.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

To reject words you can't comprehend is a classic display of ignorance.

Please point out what words I am not comprehending.  I doubt your sincerity.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Starting in the late 18th century, Satan came up with what he called ruin/reconstruction or gap theory.

Why don't you get the book that has been shown in a previous post?  Your opinions are simply delusional.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  He certainly ensnared a number of people in that heresy.  Interestingly, you never answered why it is that virtually nobody in the church questioned the age of the earth until geologists began to claim long ages.

The real question here is how you seem to know so much about what people in the church thought 100's of years ago.  Or "57 centuries" ago.  What a hoot.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

The correct term is "heresy."

You don't know what you are talking about.  Heresy is against what the Bible says.  The Bible says nothing about earth age.  But you've made it into a dogma, at which altar you worship.

However, the Bible does tell us that after creation (v.1) the earth became a wasteland (v.2), which you have chosen to reject, in favor of your dogma.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

It makes it new age doctrine.  Do I have to explain to you how years are used to record the passage of time?

Please don't.  Your opinions are boring and fact-less.  Just like formless is fact-less.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Which explains why the latest and most accurate transcription says "without form and void," right?

I guess one can convince anyone of fact-less ideas.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Your claim would only make sense if there was a consensus with new age interpretations, but most concur with the original.

There you go with your "doctrine by democracy" nonsense again.  

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

 Everyone's wrong but you, because your pastor told you new age bunk and you swallowed the lie whole.

You sure like to stretch things, huh.  "everyone but me", huh?  No, I've shown commentaries that have indicated that the earth is much older than Adam.  That's certainly many more people.  I'm sure you never bothered to read the sources that I already gave, so here they are again.

Regarding the Hebrew words "tohu wabohu"

“The analogous use, therefore, of this rare and peculiar phraseology in the verse before us may imply, according to the first sense of the term, that the world at its creation had neither received its proper shape nor was fit to be tenanted; and accordingly it is rendered in the Septuagint version 'invisible and unfurnished.' Or it may signify, according to the second acceptation in which the words are used, that the world, which had formerly been a scene of material beauty and order, was by some great convulsion plunged into a state of chaos or widespread disorder and desolation. Hence, some eminent critics, who take this view, render the clause thus: 'But (or afterward) the earth became waste and desolate.' This translation is declared by Kurtz to be inadmissible, as being contrary to the rules of grammatical construction; but Dr. McCaul has shown that the verb haayªtaah 'was,' is, in some twenty places, in this chapter, used as equivalent to 'became,' and that elsewhere it has the same signification without a following Lª - (preposition) (Isa 64:5,9). That the earth was not originally desolate seems also to be implied in Isa 45:18 “

(Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, 1997, 2003 by Biblesoft, Inc.)

Regarding v.2

V.2b  “Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters”

Specific reference to the Holy Spirit

“moved”  to brood literally. Birds are said to “brood over their eggs”.  When warmth from the mother’s body incubates the egg, out comes a baby.

“Our English version does not give the meaning correctly, because this word does not convey the idea of progressive motion, but that of brooding over-cherishing the set of incubation which a fowl performs when hatching its eggs; and the participial form of the verb implies a continuance of this action.”  (from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, 1997, 2

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

 teaching things contrary to the Bible is heresy.

Which is what you keep doing.  You need to stop it.  You have no excuse for your dogma.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  You can have any opinion you want, but when you post it as fact it's called false teaching.

You mean, like what you keep doing.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

You clearly didn't understand his evidences, and the proofs why the words could not ever mean what you claim.

There were no "evidences", only claims that were not proven.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

They come from a Satanic heresy compiled in the late 18th century.  There are volumes written against it.

You are free to believe whatever you want.  

I will stick with what the Bible says.  I let the Bible define itself, unlike what you do.

Because Genesis 1 gives no details of what "tohu wabohu" means, I go to the only other 2 passages that have "tohu wabohu" and I LEARNED that they are used to describe GREAT DESTRUCTION of land.  Hmm.  OK.  So that's how Moses used them in Gen 1:2.

That's how words are understood.  By seeing how they are used elsewhere.
Here again are the words translated from "tohu" in all 10 verses where it occurs:

chaos, desolation, futile, waste place (3), confusion, formless (2).  But Jer 4:23 cannot be ‘formless’ since it describes the total destruction of land by a besieging army that destroys nations (from context).  So should be 4 x for “wasteland/place”.  None of these words can be applied to original perfect creation of the earth.  ALL of these translations describe very negative conditions.

[FreeGrace]

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  FreeGrace said:

What I think is really strange is your thinking that there was any translation 57 centuries ago.

Count 40 centuries from Adam to Christ, and add 17.

What is the significance of any of this?  Adam wrote nothing.  Moses wrote Genesis about 1400 BC.  Jeremiah was written about 600 BC and Isaiah was written about 700 BC.  Both Jer and Isa used "tohu wabohu" to describe GREAT DESTRUCTION on the land.  

btw, not that it matters, but why add 17 to 40?

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Adam knew the truth.  He was there.

Correction.  Adam was NOT there when God created earth, or when God restored earth.  He was put on earth after God restored earth.  And no doubt told Adam what He had done.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  When Moses wrote the Torah, the Jews knew his words were true because, like all ancient cultures, the stories were handed down through the generations.

Another correction.  Truth isn't determined by "stories handed down through the generations".  

As a matter of fact, stories generally get "modified", "embellished", etc "down through the generations".  That is quite naive if you really believe what you claim.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Moses was an educated man, and doubtless became aware of Jewish history through his people long before writing anything.  That's why the Torah was so readily accepted; the people were already familiar with the contents.

How naive.  Moses was inspired (God breathed) by the Holy Spirit.  Doesn't matter a bit what others thought about "stories handed down through the generations".  

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

First, "unsightly" is your word

ANOTHER correction.  That is how the translators of the OT rendered "tohu" in the Koine Greek.  So it's not my word.  

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

second, it's taken from Genesis 1:2 and nothing but trees and grass lived on the earth before Genesis 1:20.  Grass wasn't even there until verse 9.  Once again, you demonstrate a complete lack of understanding.

Talk about a "complete lack of understanding".  You really take the cake.  v.2 introduces the NEED for restoration, because "tohu wabohu" DESCRIBES great destruction of the land, in the ONLY other 2 verses where they are found together.

Is that FACT something too difficult to wrap your mind around?

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

That's another lie.  I already did and you STILL demonstrate your inability to comprehend the meaning.

Again, you simply don't know what you are talking about.  Not surprising since you continue to insist that "formless" is possible for solid objects, even though you have no examples that would support your dogma.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Things that are formless do not have their own form. 

That's NOT the definition of form.  Why don't you believe the source YOU provided?

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Their shape is either in flux or determined by the surrounding environment, not the thing itself.

Another corrrection.  The source YOU provided differentiated between shape and form.  And you are, equating them.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  I will give you examples but that won't stop your uneducated commentary.  Ready?

Air, propane, methane, petroleum vapor, natural gas, water, milk, Kool Aide, soft drinks, saline solutions, beer, wine,  Gloop and Gleep the formless, fearless wonders, bird droppings, liberal brains, Casper the ghost, liquefied Jello, clouds, Radon, argon, Calgon, soy sauce, pickle juice, blood, steam, poorly cooked oatmeal, chicken broth and the Blob.

<snore>  Well, I at least learned that you believe in ghosts.  But I'm not surprised.  You seem to believe many things that aren't real; like 'formless'.  lol

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Case closed.  You lose. 

Yeah, sure.  Believe what you want.  Every time you post, you shoot yourself in the foot.  How many pounds have you gained from all that lead?

[FreeGrace]

RV_Wizard,

Since you believe that objects in our 3 dimensional world can be "formless", which means having NO form, even though a source you quoted from defines 'shape' as 2 dimensional and 'form' as 3 dimensional, please explain how many dimensions the earth had at creation, since you accept the KJV and other translations of "God created the heavens and earth and the earth was formless".

2 dimensions, like a drawing of a shape?  Or 1 dimension, but that doesn't exist either.

If 2 dimensions, would Gen 1:2 be describing something like a "drawing board" where God began His creation by putting everything on paper, much like a blueprint, or plans?

Please clarify.

[RdJ]

35 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

RV_Wizard,

Since you believe that objects in our 3 dimensional world can be "formless", which means having NO form, even though a source you quoted from defines 'shape' as 2 dimensional and 'form' as 3 dimensional, please explain how many dimensions the earth had at creation, since you accept the KJV and other translations of "God created the heavens and earth and the earth was formless".

2 dimensions, like a drawing of a shape?  Or 1 dimension, but that doesn't exist either.

If 2 dimensions, would Gen 1:2 be describing something like a "drawing board" where God began His creation by putting everything on paper, much like a blueprint, or plans?

Please clarify.

I think I already said this:

 

 

formless

 

adjective

1. without a clear or definite shape or structure.

   "a dark and formless idea"

    

   For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother’s womb. I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well.

   My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

   Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them.
   Psalms 139:13‭-‬16 NKJV
   https://bible.com/bible/114/psa.139.13-16.NKJV

    

   Dutch says formless.

    

   Wait what?

    

   My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

    

   It's a different word though. It clearly does not mean the same.

    

   https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h1564/kjv/wlc/0-1/

    

    

   https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h8414/kjv/wlc/0-1/

 

Edited April 20 by RdJ

[FreeGrace]

4 hours ago, RdJ said:

I think I already said this:

formless

adjective

1. without a clear or definite shape or structure.

   "a dark and formless idea"

    

   For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother’s womb. I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well.

   My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

   Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them.
   Psalms 139:13‭-‬16 NKJV
   https://bible.com/bible/114/psa.139.13-16.NKJV

   Dutch says formless.

   Wait what?

   My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

   It's a different word though. It clearly does not mean the same.

   https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h1564/kjv/wlc/0-1/

   https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h8414/kjv/wlc/0-1/

Nope.  The Bible gets to define itself, not the Dutch, not the KJV not any dictionary.  The Bible.

And, the Bible clearly shows what "tohu wabohu" means in Jer 4 and Isa 34.  This isn't even debatable.  

Both Jeremiah and Isaiah used "tohu wabohu" to describe GREAT destruction of the land.

Why would Jeremiah quote from Gen 1:2, if that verse was describing the creation of earth, when he was warning of what was coming?

Since the 2 Hebrew words occur together only 3 times total, and Gen 1:2 doesn't give details, we HAVE TO go to the other 2 occurrences, that DO have detail and context, to understand what the words mean.

Creation = construction.

Beseiging army = destruction.

The same 2 words can't be used in both contexts.

[RdJ]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Nope.  The Bible gets to define itself, not the Dutch, not the KJV not any dictionary.  The Bible.

And, the Bible clearly shows what "tohu wabohu" means in Jer 4 and Isa 34.  This isn't even debatable.  

Both Jeremiah and Isaiah used "tohu wabohu" to describe GREAT destruction of the land.

Why would Jeremiah quote from Gen 1:2, if that verse was describing the creation of earth, when he was warning of what was coming?

Since the 2 Hebrew words occur together only 3 times total, and Gen 1:2 doesn't give details, we HAVE TO go to the other 2 occurrences, that DO have detail and context, to understand what the words mean.

Creation = construction.

Beseiging army = destruction.

The same 2 words can't be used in both contexts.

Yes I agree. It's a different word than the one used for formless in Your eyes saw my formless beginning. It's always used with destruction in the other Bible texts. What do you think of this explanation? 

https://daviddflowers.com/tag/warfare-worldview/

 

Have you ever heard of dark matter and dark energy? If you hold to the Warfare Worldview—that sometime in the primordial cosmos there was an angelic rebellion against God—you might find this interesting.

Dark matter was first postulated due to the gravitational force of galaxies (or lack thereof) which couldn’t be explained by the visible mass of objects in any system. Therefore, it became clear that there is an invisible, ordering force holding space together. Hence, the term “dark” matter.

On the other hand, dark energy is an unseen force that works against the ordering power of dark matter. No, this isn’t science fiction. It’s happening.

“For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.” Paul, Ephesians 6:12 NIV

Astronomers and theoretical physicists state that both dark matter and dark energy once worked together, from the moment of the Big Bang to be precise, but dark energy began accelerating expansion and working against the ordering forces of dark matter around 5 billion years ago.

“…the expansion rate of the cosmos began speeding up about 5 billion to 6 billion years ago, like a roller coaster zooming down a track. That is when astronomers believe that dark energy’s repulsive force overtook gravity’s attractive grip.” Adam Riess, prof of physics & astronomy at Johns Hopkins University

In other words, dark energy is working to rip space apart and repel the unifying “gravitational” forces of dark matter. These are the scientific facts. And this blog post is my theological interpretation of those facts.

So, what I find most fascinating is how close this event—a war in the heavens—is to the formation of planet Earth, some 4.6 billion years ago.

Could this war between dark matter and dark energy be evidence of the spiritual war that eventually caused tohu wa bohu (chaos and destruction) upon the earth, impacting the evolution of life as we know it?

 

Leaving out the billions of years:

what I find most fascinating is how close this event—a war in the heavens—is to the formation of planet Earth,

So if there is evidence that it happened quickly after the creation of the universe and before the creation of the earth there's the proof that there was no second creation before Adam with dinosaurs that was destroyed by a flood.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, RdJ said:

Yes I agree. It's a different word than the one used for formless in Your eyes saw my formless beginning. It's always used with destruction in the other Bible texts. What do you think of this explanation? 

https://daviddflowers.com/tag/warfare-worldview/

Yes, I have heard of dark energy and dark matter.  There may be a connection.  I am absolutely sure that there has been a great conflict between God and Satan following his rebellion and recruiting 1/3 of the angelic creation.  

It is clear from Job that Satan attacks creation/creatures over and over.  Paul clearly wrote about that in Romans 8.  In Job, God set Satan up by challenging him through Job.  Satan claimed Job was obedient only because God bribed (blessed) him so much.  So God "let him at Job", twice.  Both times, Job's reaction was NOT what Satan claimed would happen.  No doubt the entire angelic creation were spectators to the events.  

I'm fascinated by 1 Peter 1:10-12

10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

[RV_Wizard]

11 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Seems you can't handle the truth.

Try me.  Say something true for once.

11 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Yet, you ignore how Jer and Isa used "tohu wabohu"

As you ignore the actual experts who point out that Jeremiah was quoting Genesis for effect; that the land would be so completely destroyed it would be as before God began to fill the earth.  Of course, no amount of proof will be good enough for you.

11 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

What I like is the truth.

No you don't.  You like approval by the old earth proponents.  That's why even though the most recent translation says "formless and void," you cling to discredited translations because they allow you to spew your heresy.

11 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

And "formless" doesn't exist, except in your mind.

Clueless DOES exist in your mind.  You have the understanding of a stone.

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 You can't give even ONE example of an object that has no form.

Another lie.  I gave you a list.

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

No one should believe me.

Point.  Set.  Match.

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Actually, it can and DOES.  

Uh... no.  Science is the study of the physical world.  Please show us how science explains things like the sun standing still in the sky or the dead coming back to life.  Show us the scientific explanation for the sudden formation of all living animals in a day.

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Not talking about liquids/gas. We're talking about the earth, a planet.

Another lie.  You said nothing was formless.

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 Why you insist that God's creation of the earth was done in baby steps is beyond reason.

I'll give you 31 reasons.  Genesis 1:1-1: 31.  If you had a clue what it said, you would have never made that statement.

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Please point out what words I am not comprehending.

The shorter list would be of ones you understand.

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

The real question here is how you seem to know so much about what people in the church thought 100's of years ago

They make these things they call books, and they are permanent records of things people publish.  Gap theory was first popularized by Thomas Chalmers in 1814.

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Heresy is against what the Bible says.

Hey, you DO know the definition of at least one word.  The Bible says there was a six day creation.  You claim otherwise.

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I'm sure you never bothered to read the sources that I already gave, so here they are again.

Publish date 1997.  It's new age heresy.  Did you bother to read the publication date?  The Biblical cannon closed after the writing of the Revelation.  Any newer doctrine is heresy.