Rev 16:18 suggests an Old Earth??

[RV_Wizard]

58 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

God didn't give us any details.

God doesn't give details on things that don't happen.  You can't answer the question because the ONLY logical answer is that NOTHING could have existed before the beginning of the creation week.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

So you are going to apply a lot of presuppositions about earth MORE than simply what the Bible says?

If you ever actually READ the Bible you would know that all of these were created AFTER verse 2.  Therefore, they did NOT exist prior.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

they describe the total destruction of land.

Despite the fact that experts say otherwise, as other people and I have quoted, you insist on picking and choosing what you want to believe to validate claims of an ancient earth; despite the fact that they don't.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

By citing my source; biblehub.com, anyone and everyone is free to use the site to see how EVERY translation handles "tohu" in all 10 verses, and in the 2 passages where "tohu wabohu" describes total destruction of land.

I counted your sources, did the math, and 86% say "without form and void."  The most modern translation says the same thing.  You follow people like Scofield because you are supported by their disbelief.  You're a loud minority voice, but only a few of little faith will listen.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

The destructive heresy here is young earth.  Satan has deceived many evangelicals into thinking the earth is extremely young.  All to the laughter of scientists who have measured many things in the universe and can prove the universe/earth is much much older.

You your faith is dependent on what science can verify?  News flash!  EVERY miracle in the Bible defies science.  I suppose Christ didn't rise from the grave either, because science says that can't happen.  You need to put away secular textbooks and turn your heart to Jesus.  You are teaching things contrary to the word of God.  The fate of false prophets and false teachers is not pretty.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Secular geologists have nothing to do with understanding Hebrew

Another lie.  See the quote above.  You are using poor interpretations of the language to bow to the claims of scientists.  You are using eisegesis.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

What is this "gap flood" that you mention?

Try reading other posts.  The gap flood or satan's flood it the explanation YOUR people use to explain why there was no dry land before verse nine.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

 God gave no details in Genesis regarding who, how, or why the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland.

What happened to the sun?  The moon?  The stars?  How did all the world come to be covered in water?  Why was there no light in the universe?  This doctrine you are pushing is nothing short of stupid.  If someone wasn't begging for a reason to believe in an old earth, you wouldn't convince an eight-year-old. 

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

 Evolution demands an old earth, but an old earth, as presented in the Bible has NO NEED for evolution.

Another lie.  I was raised to believe in an old earth.  However, I never found ANYTHING in the Bible to support it.  The Bible clearly describes a 7-day creation week.  The number of completion and perfection is 7.  It is used over 700 times in the Bible.  Learn something about the Bible before attacking it.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Romans 5 only deals with the time since man was on earth.  Meaning, no death or disease from the time Adam was created until he rebelled.

Another lie.  There was no sin prior to Adam's sin, and thus, no death.  The creation was pronounced to be very good.  No millions of years of suffering and death, and no sin.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Since God didn't give any details about why the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland, there is nothing in the rest of the Bible that would refer to what happened BEFORE the earth became a wasteland.

God didn't mention that there were volcanoes spewing milkshakes over marshmallow mountains and rivers flowing with chocolate, either.  He didn't mention rabbits bringing chocolate eggs T-bone steaks that grew wild in the grass.  He didn't mention homes made of graham crackers our trees made of cotton candy.  That doesn't mean these things didn't exist, either.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Of course God's Word is complete.  And what would "new scientific information" have to do with anything?

Before scientists claimed and old earth, we didn't have people like you trying to fit it between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.  Before scientists claimed evolution happened, we didn't have people like others here trying modify day six to show animals evolving from the earth.   Before scientists claimed a global flood never happened, we didn't have people like others here trying to claim that there was a local flood up to the mountain peaks in a low-lying area with easy run-off to the sea.

You cannot add truth to a lie and make it anything but a lie.  Put lipstick on a pig and it's still a pig.  Twist Bible teaching to support a lie and it's still a lie.  Ruin/reconstruction is just as contrary to the Scriptures as evolution is.  Leading others to doubt the clear teaching of the Bible is just as evil as preaching Islam or Buddhism.  

You have nothing to support your claim, which is not supported either by science or or Christian doctrine, but twisted interpretations of a language you don't understand.  You can't answer simple, logical questions.  You false claims do not stand up to the light of reason.

I've seen all you have to offer and it is insignificant.  Enjoy your heresy.

[FreeGrace]

52 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

FreeGrace said:

God didn't give us any details.

God doesn't give details on things that don't happen.

Are you God's spokesman, or something?  You don't know what you are talking about.  It is clear there are no details to support the use of "tohu wabohu" in Gen 1:2 and I've proven that the verb form for 'hayah' in v.2 IS translated as "became" in other verses, plus many verses that have "was" are synonymous with "became".

Such as:  Mary WAS the wife of Joseph.  Mary BECAME the wife of Joseph.  No different.  So the earth DID become a wasteland.

52 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

  You can't answer the question because the ONLY logical answer is that NOTHING could have existed before the beginning of the creation week.

Only when one keeps presupposing what isn't even real.  Like, the earth was created formless.  What a hoot.  No such thing, as I've proven over and over.  Your failure to grasp that fact is not my concern.  Obviously you are allergic to facts.

52 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

If you ever actually READ the Bible you would know that all of these were created AFTER verse 2.

your snarkiness continues, I see.  Revealing your soul again.  I've read the Bible through in less than a year, and since then (over 22 years) read through the NT monthly.  I doubt you've come close to that.  So leave your snarkiness elsewhere.

The words "tohu wabohu" refute your erroneous understanding of Gen 1:2ff.  

52 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Therefore, they did NOT exist prior.

Just your erroneous opinion.

52 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

Despite the fact that experts say otherwise, as other people and I have quoted, you insist on picking and choosing what you want to believe to validate claims of an ancient earth; despite the fact that they don't.

I'm sorry that you are just not getting it.  We KNOW what "tohu wabohu" means from Jer 4 and Isa 34 and you CAN'T CHANGE THAT FACT.  So all your whining about "6 days of creation" is a myth.  It doesn't matter what your experts say.  

Apparently your rather naive, but experts in every field disagree with each other.

The Septuagint begins v.2 with "but", showing a change in state.  

The facts are on my side.

52 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

I counted your sources, did the math, and 86% say "without form and void." 

So what?  I've PROVEN what "tohu wabohu" mean from Jer 4 and Isa 34.  So your "experts" failed.

Even the Septuagint translated "tohu" as "unsightly", a FAR CRY from the idiot "formless".  

52 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

The most modern translation says the same thing.

They're lazy.

52 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

  You follow people like Scofield because you are supported by their disbelief.

What an idiotic unsubstantiated comment.  I have never read a Scofield Bible.  And I doubt he was aware of the significance of "tohu wabohu", given the 2 other times they appear in the OT.

52 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

You your faith is dependent on what science can verify?

What a stupid idea.  Of course not.  I don't even care the number of years older than Adam the earth is.  The number is irrelevant.  The point is what the Hebrew says, which you simply reject, in spite of proving their meaning from the other times they appear in the OT.

52 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

  News flash!  EVERY miracle in the Bible defies science. 

What a hoot!  First, you try to defend "tohu" meaning "formless" because God creates in baby steps, but the LXX translated "tohu" as "unsightly".  Are you smarter than any of the translators who worked on the LXX?  No.  They knew better than to translate "tohu" as "formless" because the state of being doesn't exist in a 3 dimensional world.

Oh, did you forget the source you quoted about the difference between shape and form?  Seems so.  You need to work on your memory a bit.  Maybe take some Prevagen or something.

52 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

I suppose Christ didn't rise from the grave either

Well, that would be a stupid supposition.  Why do you come up with such grotesque statements?

52 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

because science says that can't happen. 

So, guilt by association, huh.  Doesn't work that way.  And your comments are totally irrelevanat anyway.

52 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

You need to put away secular textbooks and turn your heart to Jesus.

I've been deep in the literal Hebrew of Scripture, and this is what your apparently little mind comes up with.  Very pathetic.

52 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

  You are teaching things contrary to the word of God.

I am defending what the Hebrew SAYS.  Directly in line with God's Word.

52 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

  The fate of false prophets and false teachers is not pretty.

Neither is the fate of people who have been given facts and yet reject them.

52 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

 You are using poor interpretations of the language to bow to the claims of scientists.  You are using eisegesis.

You haven't used ANY exegesis on any word yet.  So your claim here is just another wasted bit of nonsense.  

I've shown you how the LXX translates v.2 and how other translations render the key words in the other occurrences in the OT.  FACT.

52 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

 The gap flood or satan's flood it the explanation YOUR people use to explain why there was no dry land before verse nine.

See?  There you do it again.  Making up nonsense.  I don't have "people" that I read.  It's you who keep quoting your hand picked 'experts' who don't have the sense to understand how "tohu wabohu" are used in passages that warn of coming DISASTER to the land.

52 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

What happened to the sun?  The moon?  The stars?  How did all the world come to be covered in water?  Why was there no light in the universe?  This doctrine you are pushing is nothing short of stupid.  If someone wasn't begging for a reason to believe in an old earth, you wouldn't convince an eight-year-old. 

More ridiculous questions.  You'll learn when you enter eternity.

52 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

I was raised to believe in an old earth.

How interesting.  Based on what, may I ask?  There's lots of various views as to WHY the earth is much older than Adam.  The ONLY legitimate one is based on what "tohu wabohu" mean, from her 4 and Isa 34.  Everything else is junk.

52 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

  However, I never found ANYTHING in the Bible to support it.

Even now, you're just not looking.  That is proven from all the silly questions you keep asking after I've answered them.  

52 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

The Bible clearly describes a 7-day creation week.

You've been deceived beyond reason.  Ex 20:11 doesn't use bara, but rather asah.  I've shown the difference and even color coded words to show which words in Gen 1:26,27 refer to bara and which to asah.  And you never even mentioned it.  

That's called cherry picking.  Ignore what refutes you and just keep going with your own opinions.

52 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

  The number of completion and perfection is 7.  It is used over 700 times in the Bible.  Learn something about the Bible before attacking it.

See again?  I've never attacked anything, other than your weird ideas.  When God restored the earth for man's use, the number 7 is very significant.

52 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

There was no sin prior to Adam's sin, and thus, no death. 

You really think Adam sinned before Satan.  Wow, how naive can one get!!

Ezek 28 has Satan in Eden, the garden of God BEFORE he rebelled.  When we get to Satan in Genesis, he was already fallen.  But maybe you just can't figure that out.

52 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

The creation was pronounced to be very good.

All of God's creation is very good.  Not "unsightly", not "formless" (doesn't exist).  And all of God's restoration is also very good.

You have the nutty notion that God created the earth in baby steps or stages.  Well, there's just no support for that.  Rather, Psa 33:6,9 say that God spoke everything into existence.  He doesn't need steps or stages.  Why you don't realize that is amazing.

52 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

Before scientists claimed and old earth, we didn't have people like you trying to fit it between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.

Nothing to fit in because God didn't give details of HOW the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland.

52 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Before scientists claimed evolution happened, we didn't have people like others here trying modify day six to show animals evolving from the earth.   Before scientists claimed a global flood never happened, we didn't have people like others here trying to claim that there was a local flood up to the mountain peaks in a low-lying area with easy run-off to the sea.

As I asked before, why don't you leave everyone else out of this.  Deal with my facts only.  I don't care a whit what others think about an old earth.  I KNOW what the Bible says because I've studied the words, unlike yourself.

52 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

You cannot add truth to a lie and make it anything but a lie. 

And you need to stop it.

52 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

Put lipstick on a pig and it's still a pig.  Twist Bible teaching to support a lie and it's still a lie.

I see you are basically describing what you have been doing.  The first step in recovery is to admit your error.

52 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Ruin/reconstruction is just as contrary to the Scriptures as evolution is. 

Coming from a closed minded, subjective person who doesn't want to hear the facts.

52 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

Leading others to doubt the clear teaching of the Bible is just as evil as preaching Islam or Buddhism. 

No, just defending what the Bible actually says, from the original.  And I've proven it, too.  Not that you are objective enough to admit it.

52 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

You have nothing to support your claim

Just the very text itself, and how the key words are translated elsewhere.

52 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

which is not supported either by science or or Christian doctrine, but twisted interpretations of a language you don't understand. 

Instead of spewing your hate, why don't you actually prove that I've twisted an interpretation.  You simply accept what the KJV wrote, without thinking.  You even accept the unreal state of "formless", which does NOT exist in a 3 dimensional world.

52 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

You can't answer simple, logical questions.

Nothing you've posted has been logical.  The questions you ask are about details that God hasn't given.  

52 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

  You false claims do not stand up to the light of reason.

You wouldn't know reason from a rock.

52 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

I've seen all you have to offer and it is insignificant.  Enjoy your heresy.

based on your repeated questions, it seems you are not telling the truth.  You keep asking questions that I have answered. 

That, or you have a very short attention span.

Your problem is several factors.

1.  the meaning of "tohu wabohu" is shown clearly from Jer 4 and Isa 34 and means the same thing in Gen 1:2.  And you reject that fact.

2.  the KJV of Gen 1:1,2 contradicts Isa 45:18 and you won't address it.  KJV says God created the earth tohu, and Isa 45:18 says God didn't create the earth tohu.

3.  "formlessness" does not exist as a state of being in a 3 dimensional world.  

But since you insist it does, can you tell the thread how many dimensions the world was in during that first baby step of God's creation?  You think God created the world formless.  So, how many dimensions did God create in that first step?

I don't actually expect any answers from you.  Because you don't have any.  You ignore what you know you can't answer.  

[FreeGrace]

On 4/22/2024 at 8:14 AM, RV_Wizard said:

I've seen all you have to offer and it is insignificant.  Enjoy your heresy.

With such closed eyes, of course you don't see anything.  Because you don't want to.  There are lots of facts that support an old earth and Genesis 1 being a restoration, but you just aren't interested in what you don't want to be.

I've already shown you the Greek word that means "restore" in Heb 11:3, which refers to Genesis 1.  And you call that insignificant.

And there is Mark 10:6 - “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.'"

Ken Ham uses this verse as a prooftext for a 6,000 year age of earth.  However, if one does some research among scholarly textbooks in the reference section of a Christian University, they will find significant information.

Mark 10:6 - “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’

Obviously, the reference to Adam and the woman takes us to Genesis 1 and 2.

2 Pet 3:4 - They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

Again, the reference to “our ancestors” would take us back to the original parents, Adam and Eve, and Genesis 1 and 2.

So, how do these verses relate to the age of the earth?  The Greek word for “creation” in both verses is κτίσεως.  My lexicon refers this word to ‘ktisis’.  This Greek word is found under ‘κτίζω’.  Under this word we read:  “to reduce from a state of wildness and disorder”, from Bagster & Sons lexicon.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon

STRONGS NT 2936: κτίζω

κτίζω: 1 aorist ἔκτισα; perfect passive ἐκτισμαι; 1 aorist passive ἐκτίσθην; the Sept. chiefly for בָּרָא; properly, to make habitable, to people, a place, region, island (Homer, Herodotus, Thucydides, Diodorus, others); hence to found, a city, colony, state, etc.

So from 2 independent Greek lexicon sources, this Greek word for ‘creation’ refers to a creation from a state of disorder and wildness.  Or, to make something habitable that wasn’t habitable before.

Kittel’s Theological Dictionary of the New Testament notes that in a long dissertation of κτίζω, that “in the religion of many peoples chaos stands at the beginning of being and becoming”.

The account of creation from Adam and Eve was passed down among the generations.  So the common thread of “chaos” in so many different religions would have come from what Genesis 1:2 actually says in the original, not in how most English translation renders it.

The Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament, by Balz and Schneider Eds. makes notes that “the OT creation narratives are most intelligible within the framework of ancient Near Eastern views, each motif has parallels.

The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology & Exegesis, by Sylva, notes that κτίζω is used in the the Septuagint for the rebuilding of Jerusalem in Ezra 5:17.  It further notes that the word group for κτίζω is used always of divine creation, with 1 exception, in 1 Pet 2:13.

Silva also connects κτίζω with the believer being a new creation.  This point is also noted in Kittel’s text.  This parallels the restoration of the earth in Gen 1 with regeneration of the believer.

Thus,I've cited 5 scholarly texts that address the Greek word for "creation" and they all point to a "creation from chaos", and the LXX used for "rebuilding of Jerusalem in Ezra 5:17".  

You've been given AMPLE evidence for Genesis 1 being a restoration of earth for man's use.   

 

 

[RV_Wizard]

In the beginning, God bought a Do-it-yourself world making kit from Walmart.  The kit was not complete, since someone had stripped parts from it and then returned it.  So God assembled the earth and it was good, but there was no light nor stars to make it work.  So God tossed the planet into a closet and went fishing.  He thought no more about it for a few billion years. 

Then one day He retrieved the planet, and there were creepy crawlies all over it.  So God took it to the sink and washed away all the creepy crawlies, leaving the planet covered with water.  Then He pushed things around until dry land stuck out of the water.  He took seed from His Chia Pet and soon there was grass and trees growing.  So God took pegs from His Light Bright kit and made stars, plus a sun and moon.  Then with some Instant Fish He bought along with the  Sea Monkeys from the back of a comic book, He filled the seas with life.

Then God dumped out His Animal Crackers on the planet and they began to move around.  He put His GI Joe and GI Jane figurines on the planet and humanity was created.  God looked at the world He had created and saw that it was Good.  Then He we went out onto the porch to smoke cigars with George Burns.

The above story is every bit as true and has the same validity as the story you posted, only mine can account for the pre-creation week creepy crawlies and yours cannot.  Therefore, mine is the more complete explanation.  If you're going to believe in foolishness, you should at least pick foolishness that makes at least a little bit of sense.

[FreeGrace]

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

In the beginning, God bought a Do-it-yourself world making kit from Walmart.  The kit was not complete, since someone had stripped parts from it and then returned it.  So God assembled the earth and it was good, but there was no light nor stars to make it work.  So God tossed the planet into a closet and went fishing.  He thought no more about it for a few billion years.

Yep.  That's about how your thinking "works".  Totally oblivious to any facts.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Then one day He retrieved the planet, and there were creepy crawlies all over it.  So God took it to the sink and washed away all the creepy crawlies, leaving the planet covered with water.  Then He pushed things around until dry land stuck out of the water.  He took seed from His Chia Pet and soon there was grass and trees growing.  So God took pegs from His Light Bright kit and made stars, plus a sun and moon.  Then with some Instant Fish He bought along with the  Sea Monkeys from the back of a comic book, He filled the seas with life.

Yep, just more "thinking".

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Then God dumped out His Animal Crackers on the planet and they began to move around.  He put His GI Joe and GI Jane figurines on the planet and humanity was created.  God looked at the world He had created and saw that it was Good.  Then He we went out onto the porch to smoke cigars with George Burns.

Maybe not so much "thinking".

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

The above story is every bit as true and has the same validity as the story you posted

No, your "story" is so ridiculous and unsubstantiated from the Bible.  Just a bunch of made up malarky.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

only mine can account for the pre-creation week creepy crawlies and yours cannot.

Only in your own "thinking" mind can your made up malarky account for anything.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Therefore, mine is the more complete explanation. 

Complete malarky, of course.

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

If you're going to believe in foolishness, you should at least pick foolishness that makes at least a little bit of sense.

Why does your made up malarky make even "a little bit of sense"?  There's no evidence for any of your made up malarky.

otoh, I've actually proven from how the Bible itself defines words that God's creation, which occurred in Gen 1:1 became something else, described as "tohu wabohu", which is clearly DEFINED in Jer 4 and Isa 34 as "an uninhabitable wasteland".

What no one knows is what happened that resulted in the earth becoming tohu wabohu.  Because God didn't given any details.

You had to make up details that aren't in the Bible, which qualifies your senseless malarky as made up.

I'm not surprised at all that you wouldn't even touch my previous post, which has 5 more scholarly works which support the FACT that the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland.  And from the Greek of the NT.

But you don't like facts, from all you've posted.  You prefer fantasy over facts.

So, whatever suits you.  I will stick with how the Bible defines itself.  You are free to make up whatever malarky you want.

[RV_Wizard]

58 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Complete malarky, of course.

In algebra there is a thing called the axiom of equality.  It means that if A=B and B=C, then A=C.  If my story is nonsense, and YOUR story is nonsense, then my story is every bit as valid or invalid as the things you are spewing.  The difference is, I'm not here trying to convince everyone that my story is true.  You are.

Everything you've posted is modern age heresy.  It has no basis in truth, no matter how you may twist the language you don't understand.

[FreeGrace]

4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

In algebra there is a thing called the axiom of equality.  It means that if A=B and B=C, then A=C.  If my story is nonsense, and YOUR story is nonsense, then my story is every bit as valid or invalid as the things you are spewing.

Your problem is in your "if" scenario.  YOUR story is total nonsense, while my view leaves out any theory about the why, how or when the earth became tohu wabohu.

You just keep wanting to come up with details about what happened during the time gap, and I have to keep reminding you that God didn't give any details.

However, we still easily understand what v.2 says by letting the Bible define itself, which is what translators are supposed to do, but who had the technology back in 1611 to do that?  

And that problem has been solved with current technology.  Biblehub.com shows EVERY use of any Hebrew or Greek word in the Bible, so anyone can see for themselves how any word is used throughout the Bible.

I've done that and you mock the results.  Well, that means you are mocking how the Bible defines itself.

So there's no use or sense in dealing with you.  You're convinced that "tohu wabohu" can be used to describes God's initial steps in creation, even though in the other 2 uses both Jeremiah and Isaiah used the words to describe total destruction of land.

So we're at a standstill.  Your view is nonsense, unreal, and absurd.  My view comes from how "tohu wabohu" is used in the other 2 places, where we HAVE clear details of what the words mean.

4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

The difference is, I'm not here trying to convince everyone that my story is true.  You are.

I've shown the FACTS.  But each person is responsible to properly deal with the facts.

Just like the gospel.  When it is clearly presented, the hearer has a choice;  to believe or not to believe.

You've chosen to not believe the facts about what Gen 1:2 actually says.

4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Everything you've posted is modern age heresy.  It has no basis in truth, no matter how you may twist the language you don't understand.

Your claim here is just delirious.  I've presented EVERY use of 'tohu' which is 10, including 3 times "tohu" is together with "wabohu".  So we know what "tohu" means and what "tohu wabohu" means.

What they cannot mean is Step 1 in God's attempts to create the earth.

In fact, since God speaks entires things into existence, and all without ANY steps, your whole "story" is bogus from the start.

I've proven from the NT with a verse that refers to Genesis 1 and has the Greek word 'katartizo' which means to restore and actually translated that way in Gal 6:1 and 1 Peter 5:1 and I've shown from 5 scholarly textbooks that the Greek word for "creation" means "from a state of chaos and disorder".

And yet you STILL insist that Gen 1:2 is about how God creates.

If that were true, God would be One very sloppy creator.

But we know that isn't true.  Everything God creates is GOOD.  And He doesn't create in steps.  

It is your view that is just a big fat whopping story, without a bit of truth.

[RdJ]

40 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Your problem is in your "if" scenario.  YOUR story is total nonsense, while my view leaves out any theory about the why, how or when the earth became tohu wabohu.

You just keep wanting to come up with details about what happened during the time gap, and I have to keep reminding you that God didn't give any details.

However, we still easily understand what v.2 says by letting the Bible define itself, which is what translators are supposed to do, but who had the technology back in 1611 to do that?  

And that problem has been solved with current technology.  Biblehub.com shows EVERY use of any Hebrew or Greek word in the Bible, so anyone can see for themselves how any word is used throughout the Bible.

I've done that and you mock the results.  Well, that means you are mocking how the Bible defines itself.

So there's no use or sense in dealing with you.  You're convinced that "tohu wabohu" can be used to describes God's initial steps in creation, even though in the other 2 uses both Jeremiah and Isaiah used the words to describe total destruction of land.

So we're at a standstill.  Your view is nonsense, unreal, and absurd.  My view comes from how "tohu wabohu" is used in the other 2 places, where we HAVE clear details of what the words mean.

I've shown the FACTS.  But each person is responsible to properly deal with the facts.

Just like the gospel.  When it is clearly presented, the hearer has a choice;  to believe or not to believe.

You've chosen to not believe the facts about what Gen 1:2 actually says.

Your claim here is just delirious.  I've presented EVERY use of 'tohu' which is 10, including 3 times "tohu" is together with "wabohu".  So we know what "tohu" means and what "tohu wabohu" means.

What they cannot mean is Step 1 in God's attempts to create the earth.

In fact, since God speaks entires things into existence, and all without ANY steps, your whole "story" is bogus from the start.

I've proven from the NT with a verse that refers to Genesis 1 and has the Greek word 'katartizo' which means to restore and actually translated that way in Gal 6:1 and 1 Peter 5:1 and I've shown from 5 scholarly textbooks that the Greek word for "creation" means "from a state of chaos and disorder".

And yet you STILL insist that Gen 1:2 is about how God creates.

If that were true, God would be One very sloppy creator.

But we know that isn't true.  Everything God creates is GOOD.  And He doesn't create in steps.  

It is your view that is just a big fat whopping story, without a bit of truth.

He clearly says He did it in steps in Job 38.

 

Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Or who shut in the sea with doors,
When it burst forth and issued from the womb;
9 When I made the clouds its garment,
And thick darkness its swaddling band;
10 When I fixed My limit for it,
And set bars and doors;
11 When I said,
‘This far you may come, but no farther,
And here your proud waves must stop!’

 

Resources

Hebrew/Greek

Your Content

Job 38

New King James Version

The Lord Reveals His Omnipotence to Job

38 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:

2 “Who is this who darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?
3 Now [a]prepare yourself like a man;
I will question you, and you shall answer Me.

4 “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8 “Or who shut in the sea with doors,
When it burst forth and issued from the womb;
9 When I made the clouds its garment,
And thick darkness its swaddling band;
10 When I fixed My limit for it,
And set bars and doors;
11 When I said,
‘This far you may come, but no farther,
And here your proud waves must stop!’

12 “Have you commanded the morning since your days began,
And caused the dawn to know its place,
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth,
And the wicked be shaken out of it?
14 It takes on form like clay under a seal,
And stands out like a garment.
15 From the wicked their light is withheld,
And the [c]upraised arm is broken.

16 “Have you entered the springs of the sea?
Or have you walked in search of the depths?
17 Have the gates of death been [d]revealed to you?
Or have you seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18 Have you comprehended the breadth of the earth?
Tell Me, if you know all this.

19 “Where is the way to the dwelling of light?
And darkness, where is its place,
20 That you may take it to its territory,
That you may know the paths to its home?
21 Do you know it, because you were born then,
Or because the number of your days is great?

It says womb. That sounds like initial creation, but it was also a chaos, so I guess He was creating a nice earth but with some fallen angels in the abyss, which explains the mess.

and darkness [a]was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

 Isaiah 45:7  

I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the Lord, do all these things.’

Scientists can't see how old it is. That is based on their assumptions that leave God out. Science falsely so called.

 

 

Edited April 28 by RdJ

[FreeGrace]

36 minutes ago, RdJ said:

He clearly says He did it in steps in Job 38.

Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Or who shut in the sea with doors,
When it burst forth and issued from the womb;
9 When I made the clouds its garment,
And thick darkness its swaddling band;
10 When I fixed My limit for it,
And set bars and doors;
11 When I said,
‘This far you may come, but no farther,
And here your proud waves must stop!’

Resources

Hebrew/Greek

Your Content

Job 38

New King James Version

The Lord Reveals His Omnipotence to Job

38 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:

2 “Who is this who darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?
3 Now [a]prepare yourself like a man;
I will question you, and you shall answer Me.

4 “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8 “Or who shut in the sea with doors,
When it burst forth and issued from the womb;
9 When I made the clouds its garment,
And thick darkness its swaddling band;
10 When I fixed My limit for it,
And set bars and doors;
11 When I said,
‘This far you may come, but no farther,
And here your proud waves must stop!’

12 “Have you commanded the morning since your days began,
And caused the dawn to know its place,
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth,
And the wicked be shaken out of it?
14 It takes on form like clay under a seal,
And stands out like a garment.
15 From the wicked their light is withheld,
And the [c]upraised arm is broken.

16 “Have you entered the springs of the sea?
Or have you walked in search of the depths?
17 Have the gates of death been [d]revealed to you?
Or have you seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18 Have you comprehended the breadth of the earth?
Tell Me, if you know all this.

19 “Where is the way to the dwelling of light?
And darkness, where is its place,
20 That you may take it to its territory,
That you may know the paths to its home?
21 Do you know it, because you were born then,
Or because the number of your days is great?

It says womb. That sounds like initial creation, but it was also a chaos, so I guess He was creating a nice earth but with some fallen angels in the abyss, which explains the mess.

and darkness [a]was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

 Isaiah 45:7  

I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the Lord, do all these things.’

Genesis 1 is about restoration, which is fully supported by Heb 11:3 and the use of 'katartizo' and the full meaning of the Greek word for "creation", which Jesus used in Mark 10:6 in relation to Adam and Eve.  If you missed my post on that, you can scroll up a few posts.  It's all there.

Further, the 2 Hebrew words, "tohu wabohu" found in Gen 1:2 cannot be describing original creation because in the only other 2 verses where they occur, they describe the total destruction of land.  Jer 4 and Isa 34.  

And, "formless" does not exist in reality.  Every object HAS form.  Even rv's source supports that by explaining the difference between shape and form.

Shape is 3 dimensional and form is 3 dimensional.

So it is obvious that God created the heavens and earth in 3 dimensions.  So EVERY object in creation HAS form.

36 minutes ago, RdJ said:

Scientists can't see how old it is. That is based on their assumptions that leave God out. Science falsely so called.  

Actually, scientists have very sensitive instruments with which to measure a whole lot of things.  Like the speed of light, for instance.  Did you know it takes light 8 minutes to travel from the sun to earth?  And a "light-year" is the distance light travels in a year.  And space (universe) is measured as:

https://s.yimg.com/fz/api/res/1.2/TqWkzi6o8CRalRX7lg5e8w--~C/YXBwaWQ9c3JjaGRkO2ZpPWZpbGw7aD0xNTA7dz0xNjA-/https://www.bing.com/th?id=OIP.WZv2E6fCaxEDr_Bqn_j0VgAAAA&w=160&h=160&c=8&rs=1&qlt=80&pid=3.1

7 trillion light-years

• By using the Bayesian model averaging, scientists estimated that the Universe is at least 250 times larger than the observable Universe, or at least 7 trillion light-years in diameter.
• Just ask this question:  "can science measure the width of the universe in light-years?"
• So, it is true that scientists can't see how old the universe is, but they can measure how old it is.
• As to Job 38, have you considered that it is about God's restoration in Genesis 1?  So yes, the restoration was done in 6 days.

[RV_Wizard]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

You just keep wanting to come up with details about what happened during the time gap, and I have to keep reminding you that God didn't give any details.

That's because there was no time gap.  There was no light, no heat, no stars, no dry land, nothing which could have supported life.  Even if some cataclysm had destroyed the earth, how would it have destroyed the rest of the universe?  You have no answer for this because even you know that it's quite impossible for a planet to thrive without the existence of any of the above.  Moreover, the absence of land makes any land dwelling fossils equally impossible.

The fact that only a select group of modern definitions partially support your claim further illustrates that it is nothing more than modern day heresy.  It's a deliberate twisting of the language to make believe a prior existence that is unsupported either by the Bible or by anyone with even a little knowledge of geology.