Rev 16:18 suggests an Old Earth??

[RdJ]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

It is a mistake to use Adam as an example of instant creation yet appearing an adult.  How could God create an infant, like a brand new born infant?  How would that work?  It wouldn't.

But why would God create the entire universe and earth with what is called "apparent age"?  What would be the purpose in that?  Wouldn't that rather be dishonest and deceiving?

There is no reason to create a universe with apparent age.  So that is not a defense for the universe and earth only "appearing" to look much older.

The universe appears very old because it is.  Same for earth.

There is no functional reason for God to have created the universe/earth with "apparent age".  That only continues to ignore the meaning of "tohu wabohu" and accept the non-reality of "formless".

He could also have made an infant. But that was dangerous with that devil.

 They just assume there was a big bang billions of years ago. How is it dishonest to just create a universe and make sure that they see the stars immediately and not ages later?

 

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

FreeGrace said:

 It is because you are simply a mean spirited person who wants to demonize a view you don't like.

Yep.  Meanie me, who refuses to let people spread heresies and false doctrine unchallenged. 

Your post won't let me separate sections for reply so I'll reply in red.  At least you admit you are mean.  Not that anyone who reads this thread already knows that.  However, you still twist my words.  It is you who hates my view, which is obvious from all the evidence proving it.  I don't hate your view.  I simply disagree with it because of all that I've already posted.

Genesis 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.  Not reappear.  Prior to verse nine, there was no dry land on the earth, thus again disproving the ruin/reconstruction heresy.

Again, everyone from v.2 on is about a restoration, so ALL your comments regarding those verses are irrelevant.

I did that several times.  Even the most current interpretation of the Bible says "without form and void."  You pick and choose what you want to believe and claim that is the true interpretation.  It is quite dishonest, but then, dishonesty is kind of a requirement for false teaching.

I don't "pick and choose", like you do.  I prove what "tohu wabohu" means from the only other 2 occurrences in the OT; Jer 4:23 and Isa 34:11.  The words describe DESTRUCTION.  So they can't be used to describe creation.  You have picked KJV for your "go-to" translation and have rejected where "tohu wabohu" is clearly shown for what they mean.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

As I've pointed out many times, there was virtually no question of the six day creation before the 18th century.  Your modern heresy is an attempt to placate the old earth believers by distorting the Scriptures.

And none of them had the technology like the internet and biblehub to see how any word in either Hebrew or Greek is used elsewhere.  

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

You didn't read it very well, because it also gave examples of things without form.

I read what you quoted.  It was about the difference between shape and form.  Please provide any example of something that is formless.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

  I would say your mind is fogged, but you don't believe in fog because it is a formless mist.

you aren't reading very well, because I have already addressed the FACT that clouds all have form, since they are 3 dimensional.  Including fog.  

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Formless means that it has no shape of its own; it is NOT solid.

Do you really believe God started with a ball of water?  Everyone knows that liquid in space forms a perfect sphere, due to surface tension without gravitational effects.  So even this "example" FAILS.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

  In your mind everything is solid or it doesn't exist.

Well, that's a stupid conclusion and FALSE.  Even liquids have a form.  Whatever contains them.  I've said this repeatedly.  Are you learning unable?

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

  I'm not sure how you breathe, because you don't believe in air.

Wow, you really make up some stupid comments.  Where did I say that air doesn't exist?  I know you have no example, so why don't you just grow up and act like an adult.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

See what I mean?  Do you slice off pieces of air and swallow it?

I think everyone who reads what you post sees that what you mean is ridiculous.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

  You certainly couldn't breathe air if it was a three dimensional solid.

Since air is omniscient, we can't see it.  If we could, we would see its form. I've already addressed that too.  But you're too busy making up ridiculous comments to see what I've posted.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

 

 

[FreeGrace]

44 minutes ago, RdJ said:

He could also have made an infant. But that was dangerous with that devil.

No, He wouldn't have.  You really think God would nurse-maid an infant until it grew up to be an adult and be able to do what God created him to do?

Adam (and Eve) were created to FUNCTION in the garden.  Not suck milk for months, then pablum, etc, until they grew up.

So, explain what FUNCTION the universe and earth needed to do to be created with "apparent age".  Nothing, of course.

44 minutes ago, RdJ said:

 They just assume there was a big bang billions of years ago. How is it dishonest to just create a universe and make sure that they see the stars immediately and not ages later?

You misunderstand.  The entire universe looks very old, not just a speed of light thing.

And you keep avoiding the meaning of "tohu wabohu".  Why?

[RdJ]

11 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

No, He wouldn't have.  You really think God would nurse-maid an infant until it grew up to be an adult and be able to do what God created him to do?

Adam (and Eve) were created to FUNCTION in the garden.  Not suck milk for months, then pablum, etc, until they grew up.

So, explain what FUNCTION the universe and earth needed to do to be created with "apparent age".  Nothing, of course.

You misunderstand.  The entire universe looks very old, not just a speed of light thing.

And you keep avoiding the meaning of "tohu wabohu".  Why?

Tohu wabohu, no I try to fit it together. With a fall from only satan and angels you can have tohu wabohu on an earth that is just getting created with a corner stone, the middle stone that later becomes magma I suppose.

That the earth looks old is just that they refuse to see that those layers with fossils were caused by the flood.

Light speed is interesting though.

The Dasha Theory by Dr. Dan Faulkner:

Astronomer Dr. Dan Faulkner has come up with one alternative model which he calls the “Dasha Theory” named after the Hebrew word used in Genesis meaning “to grow” or to “bring forth” as in Genesis 1:11.  God “brought forth” the stars and their light so Adam could see them on Day 4 of creation.  Remember, creation is said to be a miraculous process, like the virgin birth of Christ, or the resurrection.  So this is a model that accommodates the supernatural.

In this model, the current laws of physics don’t come into existence until after the creation period.  The Bible speaks many times of the heavens being stretched out during creation (see Isaiah 40:22, Job 9:8,  Psalm 104:2, and over a dozen other verses).  The light from the stars could have been brought forward (dasha)  abnormally fast by a process that is undescribed, enabling it to be seen on Day 4.

 

https://thebiblecanbeproven.com/does-distant-starlight-prove-a-billions-of-years-old-universe-part-6-of-series/

 

Pffff whatever. I'm not gonna read all that. I was just so happy that I didn't have to go to school anymore.

I just believe it's young. If you believe it's old that's fine. Derek Prince believed it too. He was just too educated to believe YEC I think and what does it matter.

Edited April 29 by RdJ

[FreeGrace]

15 minutes ago, RdJ said:

Tohu wabohu, no I try to fit it together. With a fall from only satan and angels you can have tohu wabohu on an earth that is just getting created with a corner stone, the middle stone that later becomes magma I suppose.

So you are trying to justify something that the Bible doesn't explain.  So what you propose is just another theory.  Whether satan and fallen angels are involved or not, the Bible just doesn't say.  Makes sense, but no evidence or explanation.

The Bible states creation in Gen 1:1.  That's everything.  Psa 33:6,9 say that God creates by speaking things into existence.  You are assuming that God creates in stages or steps, which is unfounded.  When God spoke the earth into existence, it was a fully formed sphere, like ALL planets in our solar system.

15 minutes ago, RdJ said:

That the earth looks old is just that they refuse to see that those layers with fossils were caused by the flood.

Scientists have shown with very sensitive instruments that the universe and earth are very old.  They aren't assuming anything when they are using instruments.

But this is irrelevant.  The key is the use of "tohu wabohu" in Jer 4 and Isa 34, both of which use the words to describe total destruction.  Have you been following this thread all along?  I've been over all this many times with rv.  

15 minutes ago, RdJ said:

Light speed is interesting though.

The Dasha Theory by Dr. Dan Faulkner:

Astronomer Dr. Dan Faulkner has come up with one alternative model which he calls the “Dasha Theory” named after the Hebrew word used in Genesis meaning “to grow” or to “bring forth” as in Genesis 1:11.  God “brought forth” the stars and their light so Adam could see them on Day 4 of creation.  Remember, creation is said to be a miraculous process, like the virgin birth of Christ, or the resurrection.  So this is a model that accommodates the supernatural.

Yes, interesting, but not necessary.  You call day 4 "creation".  But it is clear from how "tohu wabohu" is used in Jer 4 and Isa 34 that the words describe total destruction.

There's no way satan got in the way of God creating earth when He began.  That doesn't make sense.  When God spoke the earth into existence, it was therem right now!  Satan had no way to have any effect on what God immediately created.

15 minutes ago, RdJ said:

In this model, the current laws of physics don’t come into existence until after the creation period.  The Bible speaks many times of the heavens being stretched out during creation (see Isaiah 40:22, Job 9:8,  Psalm 104:2, and over a dozen other verses).  The light from the stars could have been brought forward (dasha)  abnormally fast by a process that is undescribed, enabling it to be seen on Day 4.

Since you are willing to accept "a process that is undescribed", why not just accept the clear meaning of "tohu wabohu" as shown in Jer 4 and Isa 34 then?

There are no details in Gen 1 that addresses the why, how and when the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland (tohu wabohu).  So God left out the details.  iow, undescribed.  

15 minutes ago, RdJ said:

I just believe it's young.

And what is your belief based on?  An incorrect translation of the Hebrew in Gen 1:2?

15 minutes ago, RdJ said:

If you believe it's old that's fine. Derek Prince believed it too. He was just too educated to believe YEC I think and what does it matter.

For me, facts matter.  When Moses described the earth as "tohu wabohu" and the exact verb form for "was" is also translated as "became" in other verses throughout the OT, it is clear that the earth became a wasteland.

That is what the Hebrew says.  And that is why Jeremiah quoted from Gen 1:2 when describing the destruction that was coming and that he was warning about.

[RdJ]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

The Bible states creation in Gen 1:1.  That's everything.  Psa 33:6,9 say that God creates by speaking things into existence.  You are assuming that God creates in stages or steps, which is unfounded.  When God spoke the earth into existence, it was a fully formed sphere, like ALL planets in our solar system.

Psalms says one thing and Job says something else. Job says womb, that's not recreation.

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Scientists have shown with very sensitive instruments that the universe and earth are very old.  They aren't assuming anything when they are using instruments.

They can see that it is big and that light travels at a speed. That's why they say it's old.

And I studied Geography and Geology for a year with these layers that are supposedly formed billions of years ago. At first I was impressed and thought: they are scientists, so this is true, so Genesis must have been 7 gigantic periods and then I heard YEC and was like: oooooooh!!! And that guy was a Canadian veteran who helped save Holland from the Nazi's.

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

But this is irrelevant.  The key is the use of "tohu wabohu" in Jer 4 and Isa 34, both of which use the words to describe total destruction.  Have you been following this thread all along?  I've been over all this many times with rv.  

Yes I've read it and you're right. It's only used for destruction, but that is not irrelevant at all. Job 38 says God shut the doors on the water or something. Do you believe that there are literal doors inside the earth with handles? No you just dismiss it because it's not true, so it means whatever.

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Yes, interesting, but not necessary.  You call day 4 "creation".  But it is clear from how "tohu wabohu" is used in Jer 4 and Isa 34 that the words describe total destruction.

There's no way satan got in the way of God creating earth when He began.  That doesn't make sense.  When God spoke the earth into existence, it was therem right now!  Satan had no way to have any effect on what God immediately created.

No I didn't say he got in the way. God threw him on the earth. Maybe He threw him on the corner stone plus water He just created. 

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Since you are willing to accept "a process that is undescribed", why not just accept the clear meaning of "tohu wabohu" as shown in Jer 4 and Isa 34 then?

There are no details in Gen 1 that addresses the why, how and when the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland (tohu wabohu).  So God left out the details.  iow, undescribed.  

And what is your belief based on?  An incorrect translation of the Hebrew in Gen 1:2?

No on that the fossils are not from millions of years ago and on that death came with Adam. I do not believe that God created a tiger that ate grass. Then satan fell. The tiger got different teeth and ate a cow. Then the earth was destroyed. Then Adam. New tigers that ate grass and looked exactly the same as the ones before. Adam fell and they went hunting. I just don't believe that. Plus blood in a foal in the ice supposedly millions of years old and the stories from Aboriginals show the ice age was after the flood.

So the only thing I could believe if I got proof other than just that text is that God created the earth, no animals, no humanoids and then satan and the angels fell and He threw em on the earth and it became a wasteland and He started over.

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

For me, facts matter.  When Moses described the earth as "tohu wabohu" and the exact verb form for "was" is also translated as "became" in other verses throughout the OT, it is clear that the earth became a wasteland.

That is what the Hebrew says.  And that is why Jeremiah quoted from Gen 1:2 when describing the destruction that was coming and that he was warning about.

Yes but if the Bible clearly says that the sun goes around the earth you don't believe it, because there's no proof for it and you think there's proof for an old earth, so you believe it.

[FreeGrace]

2 minutes ago, RdJ said:

Psalms says one thing and Job says something else. Job says womb, that's not recreation.

Sorry, but not following.  Please connect the dots between womb and recreation.

2 minutes ago, RdJ said:

They can see that it is big and that light travels at a speed. That's why they say it's old.

I'm pretty sure there's much more than that.  

2 minutes ago, RdJ said:

Yes I've read it and you're right. It's only used for destruction, but that is not irrelevant at all.

The "but" suggests a typo here.  Do you mean "not relevant" or "not IRrelevant'?

From the only 2 passages where "tohu wabohu" was used to describe total destruction, of course that is relevant for how to understand what Moses meant when he wrote Genesis.

2 minutes ago, RdJ said:

Job 38 says God shut the doors on the water or something. Do you believe that there are literal doors inside the earth with handles? No you just dismiss it because it's not true, so it means whatever.

There's a lot of figure of speeches in the Bible.  I don't get too excited about what they mean.  What is very significant is that the KJV and most translations are a direct contradiction with Isa 45:18.

KJV of Gen 1:1,2  "God created (bara) the heavens and earth and the earth was tohu."

Isa 45:18 - "God did NOT create (bar) the earth tohu."

How do you unravel that?

2 minutes ago, RdJ said:

No I didn't say he got in the way. God threw him on the earth. Maybe He threw him on the corner stone plus water He just created.

I don't deal with any "what if's".  All we know from Genesis 1 is that the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland.  Doesn't matter the why, who, or what caused it, because God didn't give any details.  

2 minutes ago, RdJ said:

No on that the fossils are not from millions of years ago and on that death came with Adam. I do not believe that God created a tiger that ate grass. Then satan fell. The tiger got different teeth and ate a cow. Then the earth was destroyed. Then Adam. New tigers that ate grass and looked exactly the same as the ones before. Adam fell and they went hunting. I just don't believe that. Plus blood in a foal in the ice supposedly millions of years old and the stories from Aboriginals show the ice age was after the flood.

Sorry, I'm not following any of this.

2 minutes ago, RdJ said:

So the only thing I could believe if I got proof other than just that text is that God created the earth, no animals, no humanoids and then satan and the angels fell and He threw em on the earth and it became a wasteland and He started over.

We don't know that throwing satan and company being thrown down onto the earth was the cause of the earth becoming an uninhabitable wasteland.

2 minutes ago, RdJ said:

Yes but if the Bible clearly says that the sun goes around the earth you don't believe it, because there's no proof for it and you think there's proof for an old earth, so you believe it.

Where does the Bible say the sun goes around the earth?  Regardless, from man's perspective, that's sure what it looks like anyway.  So no problem.  The author of that, if true, was only writing from his perspective.  

[RV_Wizard]

8 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

You believe God created the earth in steps, or processes... When God creates, He simply SPEAKS His creations into existence.

What does the Bible say?

Day 1 - God created light and separated the light from the darkness, calling light "day" and darkness "night."
Day 2 - God created an expanse to separate the waters and called it "sky."
Day 3 - God created the dry ground and gathered the waters, calling the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters "seas." On day three, God also created vegetation (plants and trees).
Day 4 - God created the sun, moon, and the stars to give light to the earth and to govern and separate the day and the night. These would also serve as signs to mark seasons, days, and years.
Day 5 - God created every living creature of the seas and every winged bird, blessing them to multiply and fill the waters and the sky with life.
Day 6 - God created the animals to fill the earth. On day six, God also created man and woman (Adam and Eve) in his own image to commune with him. He blessed them and gave them every creature and the whole earth to rule over, care for, and cultivate.
Day 7 - God had finished his work of creation and so he rested on the seventh day, blessing it and making it holy.

So, in your make-believe Bible, verses 2-28 do not exist.  Did you black out the verses with a marker, or cut them out with scissors?

7 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

But why would God create the entire universe and earth with what is called "apparent age"?

If God had created things the way science claims, the sun would have been too hot to support life billions of years ago and would be too cold now.  As it is, it is perfect.  God created the stars for specific reasons.  Waiting many years for the light to reach the earth was not part of the plan.  It only appears old to those who reject God's explanation of creation and propose some crazy magic auto-creation that took billions of years to happen.

[RV_Wizard]

5 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 I prove what "tohu wabohu" means from the only other 2 occurrences in the OT; Jer 4:23 and Isa 34:11.

You prove nothing.  Hebrew experts point out the Jeremiah referenced Genesis to describe the total absence of any life.  While this has been pointed out to you repeatedly, you only believe what you want to believe.  You don't have the capability to understand that words can have more than one meaning.  You seem to think you can take a minority opinion on a translation and proclaim it to be the "True Hebrew."  People who can actually read and write the language have proved you wrong, but you continue to spew the same lie.

5 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

And none of them had the technology like the internet and biblehub to see how any word in either Hebrew or Greek is used elsewhere.  

That's probably one of the most profoundly stupid things I've ever read.  Hebrew experts with the actual texts couldn't interpret them without Biblehub.com?  Seriously?

5 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Do you really believe God started with a ball of water?

Do you seriously expect us to ignore Genesis 1:9?

5 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Since air is omniscient, we can't see it.

WHAT?????  Omniscient means all knowing.  The last time I gave air a simple science test it got a zero.  Maybe that's why air won't let you breathe it.  What form does it have, exactly?

The simple fact that you have no clue what words mean, doesn't mean you can make up meanings for them.

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Scientists have shown with very sensitive instruments that the universe and earth are very old.

I have a broken clock that shows 4:30.  Unlike you, it's right at least twice per day.

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

For me, facts matter.

No they don't.  Only the things you call facts matter.  The fact that you're wrong about nearly everything you post matters to the rest of us.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

There's a lot of figure of speeches in the Bible.

You mean figures of speech.

[FreeGrace]

39 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

FreeGrace said:

You believe God created the earth in steps, or processes... When God creates, He simply SPEAKS His creations into existence.

What does the Bible say?

Day 1 - God created light and separated the light from the darkness, calling light "day" and darkness "night."
Day 2 - God created an expanse to separate the waters and called it "sky."
Day 3 - God created the dry ground and gathered the waters, calling the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters "seas." On day three, God also created vegetation (plants and trees).
Day 4 - God created the sun, moon, and the stars to give light to the earth and to govern and separate the day and the night. These would also serve as signs to mark seasons, days, and years.
Day 5 - God created every living creature of the seas and every winged bird, blessing them to multiply and fill the waters and the sky with life.
Day 6 - God created the animals to fill the earth. On day six, God also created man and woman (Adam and Eve) in his own image to commune with him. He blessed them and gave them every creature and the whole earth to rule over, care for, and cultivate.
Day 7 - God had finished his work of creation and so he rested on the seventh day, blessing it and making it holy.

You ignore the facts and accept the 6 days as creation, when the words "tohu wabohu" are only used for destruction.  So the 6 days are restoration, where God did restore in steps.  Obviously.

39 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

So, in your make-believe Bible, verses 2-28 do not exist.

It is clear that your irrationality has no limits.  v.2-8 are about the restoration, proven by the use of "tohu wabohu".  And you can't refute it.

39 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

If God had created things the way science claims

More irrationality.  Science leaves God totally out of the picture.

39 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

the sun would have been too hot to support life billions of years ago and would be too cold now.  As it is, it is perfect.  God created the stars for specific reasons.  Waiting many years for the light to reach the earth was not part of the plan.  It only appears old to those who reject God's explanation of creation and propose some crazy magic auto-creation that took billions of years to happen.

Your fantasies prevent rational thought.