Rev 16:18 suggests an Old Earth??

[RdJ]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Sorry, but not following.  Please connect the dots between womb and recreation.

Job 38 doesn't sound like a recreation but the 'birth' of the earth:

 

“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?

If it was all ruined and Job 38 is a recreation, He lays the foundation again? The whole planet ceased to exist?

To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8 “Or who shut in the sea with doors,
When it burst forth and issued from the womb;
9 When I made the clouds its garment,
And thick darkness its swaddling band;

A swaddling band for a billion years old earth? Womb?

In every stone building, one stone is crucial. It is laid first, and it is to ensure that the building is square and stable. It is the rock upon which the weight of the entire structure rests. 

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I'm pretty sure there's much more than that.  

The "but" suggests a typo here.  Do you mean "not relevant" or "not IRrelevant'?

From the only 2 passages where "tohu wabohu" was used to describe total destruction, of course that is relevant for how to understand what Moses meant when he wrote Genesis.

You said it's irrelevant if scientists say that the earth is old. If there would be proof that it's young you can just dismiss that tohu translation. 

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

KJV of Gen 1:1,2  "God created (bara) the heavens and earth and the earth was tohu."

Isa 45:18 - "God did NOT create (bar) the earth tohu."

How do you unravel that?

He didn't create it uninhabitable. He was still busy for a week. He first laid the corner stone, then the water, then light, dry land out of the water, grass and animals.

 

Edited April 29 by RdJ

[farouk]

6 minutes ago, RdJ said:

Job 38 doesn't sound like a recreation but the 'birth' of the earth:

 

“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?

If it was all ruined and Job 38 is a recreation, He lays the foundation again? The whole planet ceased to exist?

To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8 “Or who shut in the sea with doors,
When it burst forth and issued from the womb;
9 When I made the clouds its garment,
And thick darkness its swaddling band;

A swaddling band for a billion years old earth? Womb?

In every stone building, one stone is crucial. It is laid first, and it is to ensure that the building is square and stable. It is the rock upon which the weight of the entire structure rests. 

You said it's irrelevant if scientists say that the earth is old. If there would be proof that it's young you can just dismiss that tohu translation. 

He didn't create it uninhabitable. He was still busy for a week. He first laid the corner stone, then the water, then light, dry land out of the water, grass and animals.

 

Hi @RdJ I'm not sure of the gap theory in Genesis 1.........

[RdJ]

Just now, farouk said:

Hi @RdJ I'm not sure of the gap theory in Genesis 1.........

I used to think it was true for a while, but I don't anymore since they found soft tissue in a dinosaur and lately blood in a foal in the ice that was supposedly millions of years old. 

[FreeGrace]

22 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

FreeGrace said:

 I prove what "tohu wabohu" means from the only other 2 occurrences in the OT; Jer 4:23 and Isa 34:11.

You prove nothing.

You embarrass yourself with your absurd statements.  And your denial of clear facts.

22 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Hebrew experts point out the Jeremiah referenced Genesis to describe the total absence of any life.

That would be "bohu", the second Hebrew word.  You just have to ignore "tohu" altogether to maintain your fantasy.

When "bohu" is attached to "tohu" they mean "uninhabitable wasteland", which is how they are used in both Jer 4 and Isa 34, both which describe total destruction of land.  Which is what happened to the earth and recorded in Gen 1:2.

22 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

  While this has been pointed out to you repeatedly, you only believe what you want to believe.

I only believe what the actual Hebrew words mean, as clearly shown in Jer 4 and Isa 34, passages that prove what "tohu wabohu" mean.  

22 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

  You don't have the capability to understand that words can have more than one meaning.

Sure they do.  But you, otoh, seem to be clueless about the FACT that a word never has contradictory meanings.  Or, prove that they do, by giving examples.  And proving that "tohu" is one of those kind of words.

22 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

  You seem to think you can take a minority opinion on a translation and proclaim it to be the "True Hebrew."

Everyone who can read and find biblehub.com can prove to themselves that the Hebrew words are "tohu wabohu" in Gen 1:2, Jer 4:23 and Isa 34:11.  Those w0rds are "true Hebrew".  

22 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

  People who can actually read and write the language have proved you wrong, but you continue to spew the same lie.

No one has.  They are only opinions, and have the SAME problem that you have.  Their faulty understanding of Gen 1:2 which creates a GLARING contradiction with Isa 45:18 and you can't explain away, how "tohu wabohu" are used in Jer 4 and Isa 34, the only other passages where the words occur together, and you seem fine with words that describe total destruction can also be used for God's creation.

22 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

That's probably one of the most profoundly stupid things I've ever read.  Hebrew experts with the actual texts couldn't interpret them without Biblehub.com?  Seriously?

You really have no understanding of how translations worked before technology.  There was no way to check how ANY word was translated elsewhere.  But we can because of technology.  

22 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

Do you seriously expect us to ignore Genesis 1:9?

I have never suggested that anyone ignore anything in the Bible.  Esp you, who keeps ignoring how "tohu wabohu" are used in Jer 4 and Isa 34.

22 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

WHAT?????  Omniscient means all knowing.

OK, typo.  omnipresent.  Which any thinking person would easily realize.

22 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

What form does air have, exactly?

I've already been through that.  Why don't you at least read what I post?

22 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

The simple fact that you have no clue what words mean, doesn't mean you can make up meanings for them.

What rubbish.  I read more lexicons than you, from all that you post, and what you ignore.

22 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

Only the things you call facts matter.

You have ignored the facts.  What doesn't matter to me is your opinion.

22 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

  The fact that you're wrong about nearly everything you post matters to the rest of us.

And you can't prove anything you claim.  Just another opinion of yours.

[farouk]

13 minutes ago, RdJ said:

I used to think it was true for a while, but I don't anymore since they found soft tissue in a dinosaur and lately blood in a foal in the ice that was supposedly millions of years old. 

Ppl make sweeping statements and then afterwards they turn out not to be true.............

[FreeGrace]

17 minutes ago, RdJ said:

Job 38 doesn't sound like a recreation but the 'birth' of the earth:

“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?

If it was all ruined and Job 38 is a recreation, He lays the foundation again? The whole planet ceased to exist?

To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8 “Or who shut in the sea with doors,
When it burst forth and issued from the womb;
9 When I made the clouds its garment,
And thick darkness its swaddling band;

I don't recall saying that Job 38 was about the restoration.

17 minutes ago, RdJ said:

A swaddling band for a billion years old earth? Womb?

?

17 minutes ago, RdJ said:

In every stone building, one stone is crucial. It is laid first, and it is to ensure that the building is square and stable. It is the rock upon which the weight of the entire structure rests.

The cornerstone isn't mentioned in Genesis 1.  Ever notice that?

17 minutes ago, RdJ said:

You said it's irrelevant if scientists say that the earth is old. If there would be proof that it's young you can just dismiss that tohu translation.

I know how "tohu" is used because of all 10 uses in the OT, including the 3 verses where "tohu" is attached to "wabohu".  What is interesting is that all the YEC ignore how "tohu" is translated throughout the OT.

And they accept that "formless" is a state of being, which it isn't.  God created a 3 dimensional universe.  One of rv's sources said that "form" is 3 dimensional.  So it's impossible for an object to have less than 3 dimensions.  Therefore, "formless" isn't a real state.  The word can be used in comparing similar objects where one LACKS the usual characteristics of the other similar objects.

I've given a clear example of that.

 What is irrelevant is HOW OLD science says the earth is.  It is what it is, and science can't pin it down to any specific number of years.  That's what I meant.

 

17 minutes ago, RdJ said:

He didn't create it uninhabitable.

You're misquoting or misunderstanding Isa 45:18.  It says that God did not create the earth tohu.  Yet, the KJV and most translations have Gen 1:1-2 say that God created the earth and the earth WAS tohu.

So, take your pick, I guess.  I reject the contradiction between KJV and Isa 45:18.

By understanding "tohu" as being a wasteland, or chaos, or desolation, we know that v.2 is describing what the earth BECAME.  Not created AS.

17 minutes ago, RdJ said:

He was still busy for a week. He first laid the corner stone, then the water, then light, dry land out of the water, grass and animals.

Where does Genesis 1 say anything about that cornerstone?  That was laid when God created the earth (v.1).

[FreeGrace]

20 minutes ago, farouk said:

Hi @RdJ I'm not sure of the gap theory in Genesis 1.........

You can be sure when you see how "tohu wabohu" is used in Jer 4 and Isa 34, both verses are describing total destruction of land.

Why would Jeremiah quote from Gen 1:2 if that verse was describing original creation, when Jeremiah was warning of coming destruction?

[FreeGrace]

25 minutes ago, RdJ said:

I used to think it was true for a while, but I don't anymore since they found soft tissue in a dinosaur and lately blood in a foal in the ice that was supposedly millions of years old. 

We know what "tohu wabohu" describes in Jer 4 and Isa 34, so how could they be describing God's original creation of earth in Gen 1:2?

[farouk]

25 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

You can be sure when you see how "tohu wabohu" is used in Jer 4 and Isa 34, both verses are describing total destruction of land.

Why would Jeremiah quote from Gen 1:2 if that verse was describing original creation, when Jeremiah was warning of coming destruction?

Thomas Chalmers (19th C) was into the gap theory; a lot of other conservative commentators have not necessarily been.

[RV_Wizard]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I know how "tohu" is used because of all 10 uses in the OT, including the 3 verses where "tohu" is attached to "wabohu".

What do REAL Hebrew experts say?

While Isaiah and Jeremiah use the same Hebrew phrase (tohu waw-bohu) to describe a setting of judgment, it is unsound to read later meanings back into earlier meanings. For example, one should not expect to read Isaiah’s first-known example of an apocalypse and see an angelic guide as became popular in later apocalypses such as Zechariah.

Bohu appears 3x in the Hebrew Bible, always near tohu (Gen 1:2; Isa 34:11, Jer 4:23). In an entry by Edward J. Young, TWOT notes that the pictures of desolation in Isaiah and Jeremiah borrow from Genesis in the sense that the two prophets see the area under judgment as in the same shape as the earth after it was created but for different reasons. In Isaiah and Jeremiah, they see the land judged to the extent it is in the same shape as the world used to be. It is not that God destroyed the Earth to tohu and bohu in Genesis. Simply, when God created them, he made them tohu and bohu.

Tohu is used 20 times in 19 verses of the Hebrew Bible. 11 of those uses are in Isaiah. The meaning of the word is broader than the gap theory would like. Only rarely is the context of tohu judgment. Also, the parallelism in Isaiah 45:18 shows that the meaning is not the same as in Genesis 1:2. Isaiah is a poet, and parts of his book are poetry. Hebrew poetry does not rhyme; instead it uses parallels to repeat and establish meaning.

(T)he following have all been found contrary to the Gap Theory:

Bara' and 'asah indeed have synonomous meanings.

The first waw in Genesis 1:2 is correctly translated as "and."

The hyth in Genesis 1:2 is correctly translated as "was."

Tohu and bohu mean that the Earth was originally created in a state that was uninhabited, but God's intention in the creation was to make them inhabitable.

The ending of Genesis 1:1 with a silluq (not a rebhia as claimed) is normal and has no impact on the waw following.

Replenish in 1:28 simply means "fill." It gives no indication that there had been prior inhabitants on the earth. 

source

Jeremiah saw the fall of Judah as reverting back to a time before God ordered the earth. It bookended the beginning of creation when everything was without order… it was formless and void, with no light, and no human. It was a wilderness with no cities. Just as God spoke the world into existence with a breath, He could speak it out of existence. Fortunately, YHWH refused to shut down creation. (I will not execute a complete destruction).

Isaiah, in a similar manner to Jeremiah but more ornate in his poetry, also compared the desolate and unordered earth, in Genesis 1, to God’s judgement on the nations:  source

“The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.” (Genesis 1:2)

In the original Hebrew the phrase ‘without form and void’ appears as ‘Tohu Va-Vohu’ {תהו ובהו}and is a difficult one to translate because it is a Hebrew play on words. The first and primary thing that stands out is the ability of the Hebrew language to describe the ‘absence of things’ in one or two words WITHOUT using the negation form.

In other words, while the English translation speaks about a certain condition that was characterized by the ABSENCE of form or ‘FORMLESS,’  the original Hebrew describes the condition of the earth as ‘Tohu Va-Vohu’ which literally means an ’empty desert’ and is another word for a desert without water.

The big difference between the two descriptions – the English translation versus the original Hebrew – is that the English description makes one imagine a total mess and chaos. In contrast, the Hebrew description does not illustrate a mess but rather describes an empty, waterless land…a land without mountains, trees, rivers and so on – a land  that ‘awaits’ to be developed.

If we examine the SECOND part of this verse ‘and darkness was over the face of the deep’, we find the original Hebrew word for ‘the deep’ is ‘Tehom’ {תהום} which in Biblical Hebrew actually means ‘water’ or more accurately the ‘ancient sea’ as can be found in a description from Psalms:

“You covered it with the DEEP as with a garment; the waters stood above the mountains.” (Psalm 104:6)

There, it is easier to understand what is the connection between ‘Tehom’ – the ancient sea – and ‘deep.’ The ancient sea was so deep it covered the entire face of the earth. Interestingly, in Modern Hebrew, the word ‘Tehom’ means ‘abyss’ and is closer to the English translation of ‘the deep.’   source

It is an unmistakable and undeniable fact that ruin/reconstruction is a heresy that came about in the 18th century and is NOT based in a clearer understanding of the Hebrew language, but rather an attempt to justify old earth theology within the text of Genesis.  I have provided multiple sources from experts in the Hebrew language who agree that the text reads "without form and void."  Genesis one is, as has been taught since Adam walked the earth and as recorded by Moses, God's explanation of the six day creation and the establishment of the seven day week.  That is what the ACTUAL HEBREW says.

There was no previous world that existed before light, the sun, the moon, stars, or even the formation of dry land.  There was no destruction of God's original creation.  There was no restoration.  There was NO death prior to Adam's sin; no millions of years of death and fossilization; no evolution.  This is the clear teaching of the Bible.  Gap heresy is no better than evolution heresy.  Both are Satanic in origin, both require a twisting of the clear language in the Bible, Both of which require the discarding of the Fourth Commandment, and both of which are modern day heresies.  The Scriptures warned us that the father of lies would create many false doctrines and would deceive many.

The truth lies within the words of God; not the lies of men.