Charisma Online: It's Getting Really Weird Out There

[Guest Ray_Finder]

Hello: I just joined this board last week. I may have made a mistake. I won't even tell you all what persuasion of Christianity I am, because, I have literally, been the gambit of most of Christianity in terms of denomonations, doctrinal beliefs, etc. I was hoping for a Bible forum, where 'iron sharpens iron' in a friendly mannor, but, I see somewhat of bickering happening. I really do not like that. In my 25+ year walk with the Lord, I have repeatedly left that kind of environment without offering any kind of reason. Today, I believe I will make a exception, and ignore inflamitory remarks and offer a opinion.

I am sure I can find many articles about Pentacostals, and then also main line denominations as well. Most are by

those who wish to 'vent' their particular beliefs about how wrong those are who do not belong to or follow their particular doctrines, and/or worship styles. Most of what I have read and seen use partial quotes etc. to propagate their viewpoint, with little or very out of contextual Bible quotes.

I believe that the real issue in the American churchs (all denomonations) is a lack of relationships with

accountability to faithful and spiritual leaders.

You see, if I have good relationships with mature spiritual leaders who are following Christ, then the following things can happen:

1. I will not deliberately head into sin, because I know that I will have at some point, someone confront me

about what I am doing. You see, I have asked them to do that for me early on.

2. I know that those over me in the Lord, also have those over them, who also ask the hard questions regularly

to them, and are a covering protecting new and seasoned saints alike. Sin can not be swept under the carpet

and then get good results.

3. If I have relationships with those over me, I will also learn much about them, and their conversation (mannor

of life) in Christ. With be barriors down, we can learn to love and forgive each other for our short commings,

and if severe things happen, we have a group of overseers, who can come and function as protectors of the

local church body. (a whole other topic)

4. The church is not run by a local church board of business men and accountants, but, run by the pastor and

other godly men who function as a ministry team out of love and respect. Church boards are Not the biblical pattern layed out by scriptures, but, the U.S. church has swallowed it 'hook-line-and-sinker. There needs to be

ministry by the local pastors, and other internal/external ministry gifts, working together.

I will stop with that. I could say much more about biblical church life but I suspision that what I have said will be picked to pieces by the fault finders and grammar checkers ;-)

Love + Relationships = Accountability. Accountability - (Love or Relationship) = Rebellion and Sin.

Ray . . .

[Catsmeow]

This blatent ignorance of scripture is part of the problem, another is allowing pastors and leaders to spoon feed this

I agree with Nebula, very well said. The people who misuse scripture in this way are the ones who let their pastor read the Bible for them. They aren't getting into the Word themselves. That's why your "spoonfeeding" comment was right on!

Matthew 7:20-22 "Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'

Amen, Keith!

For the record, I thought the article was insightful. It serves as a barometer of issues facing the church today. It's a "heads-up" where we need to be aware that the pastors in various churches *(not just charismatic) need to be held accountable for their actions.

Absolutely, the Word needs to be the standard by which we live and the truth that serves to define right and wrong, good and bad...

Many pastors are preaching error and some are living lives that are unacceptable as a witness for Christ.

[Catsmeow]

Hello: I just joined this board last week. I may have made a mistake. I won't even tell you all what persuasion of Christianity I am, because, I have literally, been the gambit of most of Christianity in terms of denomonations, doctrinal beliefs, etc. I was hoping for a Bible forum, where 'iron sharpens iron' in a friendly mannor, but, I see somewhat of bickering happening. I really do not like that. Ray . . .

Ray, you'll find harsh and critical people (who wear 'boxing gloves') anywhere you go, bruh. I'm afraid it exists. I don't even know if they realize what kind of impression they make..especially on new members.

There's a lot of very nice people here. Really.

Any church or board or place of fellowship will have "harsh" people who are opiniated and divisive. I think we all have our "moments" individually...but as we mature, we become more humbled by our own lack and His own greatness.

As we mature, we begin to decrease (in our walk)...and He increases. Hopefully, people will see more of Him and less of "us".

Please stay around. Pay no mind to those who are difficult...but rather, pray for them. Come and fellowship with us. You are most welcomed here.

[Gerioke]

I believe that the real issue in the American churchs (all denomonations) is a lack of relationships with

accountability to faithful and spiritual leaders.

Can you show scripture for this?

My Bible says that if we confess our sins (to God), he is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Why bother with accountability when God said the account is settled? (Col. 2)

Every time, and I mean EVERY time, I have ever gone to a church pastor or other church leader for advise regarding daily life, or a sin problem, or whatever, they have failed to give me a satisfactory scriptural answer. There have even been times when I knew without doubt that what the person was saying directly contradicted the Bible. I don't trust my salvation, forgiveness, sanctification, or pretty much anything else to a "spiritual leader", and if you had my personal experiences you'd understand why, but on top of that, I've yet to find scriptural support for so-called "accountability".

hink outside he box. Not all spiritual leaders are pastors. How many imes did the Jews disregard what the prophets had to say? Were hey no spiritual leaders?

[jamie]

Heres a pretty good article about 'pastoral dependence'.

http://www.lighthouseprophecy.com/prophecy...Dependence.html

[nebula]

Hi, Ray!

Welcome to the Board!

2. I know that those over me in the Lord, also have those over them, who also ask the hard questions regularly

to them, and are a covering protecting new and seasoned saints alike. Sin can not be swept under the carpet

and then get good results.

That's great you have this security.

The church I had to depart from . . . the senior pastor didn't actually have someone over him - or, well, there were people who were there to help keep him accountable, but he didn't listen to them.

You points are good ones - accountability to godly people can help prevent such errors as have been described in the OP article.

Unfortunately, that doesn't always happen.

But it should, eh?

[Guest Ray_Finder]

Hi, Ray!

Welcome to the Board!

2. I know that those over me in the Lord, also have those over them, who also ask the hard questions regularly

to them, and are a covering protecting new and seasoned saints alike. Sin can not be swept under the carpet

and then get good results.

That's great you have this security.

The church I had to depart from . . . the senior pastor didn't actually have someone over him - or, well, there were people who were there to help keep him accountable, but he didn't listen to them.

You points are good ones - accountability to godly people can help prevent such errors as have been described in the OP article.

Unfortunately, that doesn't always happen.

But it should, eh?

Hi: Thank you for your welcome. You are right, I am aware of some churchs who do not have

accountability. But, there are Christians who are not accountable to anyone either, so we

should not be surprised.

I can only respond to your posts at lunch time, so, sorry about the time lag. . .

The key to making myself accountable to someone else, is, that they not be 'gossips', and can keep

a confidence with me. If I do this, then I am saying that I need help reguarding such&such a habit or

sin, and that I no longer want it private (only known between myself and Jesus), but, want it exposed

to another person (should be mature in Christ), for the expressed purpose of forsaking it and getting

it rid of out of my life. Does the other person forgive my sin? NO ! ! ! Only Jesus can do that, and yes,

I must confess my sin to Him and repent. But if for whatever reason, I fall into a pattern of <Sin-confess-

forsake, Sin-confess-forsake> then another person who genuinely loves and appreciates us, can indeed

help us by shaking us out of a 'secret sin' mentality, and helping us get victory over whatever it is that

is holding us captive.

For whatever it is worth, that is my opinion based on victory obtained via this principle.

Ray .. .

[Guest Ray_Finder]

I believe that the real issue in the American churchs (all denomonations) is a lack of relationships with

accountability to faithful and spiritual leaders.

Can you show scripture for this?

My Bible says that if we confess our sins (to God), he is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Why bother with accountability when God said the account is settled? (Col. 2)

Every time, and I mean EVERY time, I have ever gone to a church pastor or other church leader for advise regarding daily life, or a sin problem, or whatever, they have failed to give me a satisfactory scriptural answer. There have even been times when I knew without doubt that what the person was saying directly contradicted the Bible. I don't trust my salvation, forgiveness, sanctification, or pretty much anything else to a "spiritual leader", and if you had my personal experiences you'd understand why, but on top of that, I've yet to find scriptural support for so-called "accountability".

Sorry for the time lag . . . I can only reply on lunch time . . .

I agree with your using scripture to confess our sins according to 1John 1&2 chapters. Yes, we are indeed

forgiven. Thank you Jesus ! ! ! However, if we repeatedly fall into the same sin over and over for what ever

reason, then the accountability to a mature person in Christ reguarding that sin can help us break the silent

cycle of sin-repent-confess, sinagain-repentagain-confess again, etc. There are alot of pitfalls in doing this with

a person who is not trustworthy, in-mature, gossip, etc. It should be assumed that we know this person and

that the person genuinely wants us to have victory, and succeed, and really loves us, and will pray for us

with compassion.

As far as scriptures . . . hummm . . . well, how about James 5:16, in that area, where we are told to confess

our faults one to another, as well as pray one for another ? . . . Ummm . . . how about Hebrews 13:17,

where we are instructed how to properly relate to those who have the rule over us . . . implied accountability.

Just remembering some off the top of my head here . . . how about where Paul confronted the church at Corinth,

concerning incest in a particular family? That kinda dovetails in with church discipline, but that is another topic.

I am truely sorry about your experiences with inmature leadership in various churches, but, I encourage you to

find a church where the ministry gifts (plural) (internal and external) are functioning, and plug-in with all your

heart. You will find it rewarding and encouraging to your faith, and something that will end up making you

stronger over time.

I appreciate you . . .

Ray . . .

[O'Dannyboy]

Hello Ray and welcome to Worthy Boards!

I want to comment on one of your statements that caught me off guard. You are right about "iron sharpening iron". This is one of the main reasons why I love this forum.

I know that those over me in the Lord, also have those over them, who also ask the hard questions regularly

to them

It, perhaps, might be better to consider these people more mature in Christ. I am not willing to accept somone "over me" in the Lord. I have NO intermediaries between me and my Lord. Please consider carfully how you refer to these people. They are teachers and more mature in the word but they should not be cosidered your "superior". Even Paul and Peter refered to those they preached to as "brother" or "sister" and not "child" or "my child".

As for the article, that is the topic of this discussion, the writer is not far from the mark on the failings of "the Church" to weed out sin. I would think the article might have more influence if it weren't smothered with advertisements for books. Sadly the article and magazine are specific to the "charismatic" church but it does highlight problems that exist inalmost all denominations.

[Guest Ray_Finder]

Hello Ray and welcome to Worthy Boards!

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Thank you for your greeting :-)

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It, perhaps, might be better to consider these people more mature in Christ. I am not willing to accept somone "over me" in the Lord. I have NO intermediaries between me and my Lord. Please consider carfully how you refer to these people. They are teachers and more mature in the word but they should not be cosidered your "superior". Even Paul and Peter refered to those they preached to as "brother" or "sister" and not "child" or "my child".

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Actually, I do believe in overseers in the body of Christ, heres why:

I Tim 5:17 - "Let the elders that rule well . . . strongs 4291 'be over' 'superintend' 'care for' as like a

guardian'

Heb 13:7 - Remember them which have the rule over you - strongs 2233 - lead, governor, rule, command,

to have authority over . . . and more

Heb 13:17 - Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves - strongs same word 2233 -

Remember submission is not agreement. Let the rest of the verse speak for itself . . .

There are more examples in NT of authority being used by leaders, but, it should be always for the benefit

of the body. I understand your concern, most churchs are sooo messed up, having weak leaders, or hirelings.

Yet, I am aware of several other churchs like mine who have godly leaders, there must be many more out there.

Certainly we have no intermediaries. Yet, if there are no leaders in the church, then, gifts cannot function

as they were designed. Think of it as a 'hiearchy amoungst equals'. Also, Paul stated somewhere in NT that we

should follow him as he follows Christ. If he stops following Christ, then, we no longer follow his example. So,

that would imply that we 'know' our leaders, their mannor of life in Christ, so this is not a blind obedience thing.

Every thing taught, every direction given by godly leaders, must be weighed with the Scriptures.

How 'readest thou'? ;-)

Ray . . .