Are Jews saved...

[Elihu's Girl]

A Link

Letter to Messianic Jews (Hebrews) 11: 24-26 By trusting(faith), Moshe (Moses), after he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter. He chose being mistreated along with God's people rather than enjoying the passing pleasures of sin. He had come to regard abuse suffered on behalf of the Messiah as greater riches than the treasures of Egypt, for he kept his eyes fixed on the reward. (Jewish New Testament)

[EmunahTikvahAHAVA]

No one goes to the father except through Yeshua:

Question: If no one goes to the Father except through Yeshua how did Moses and everyone in the First Testament to the Jews,enter the kingdom or G_D, since they died before Yeshua was born?

In John: 4:22 Yeshua says He is a Jew, only Jews know how to Worship and salvation comes from the Jews. Matt: 23:3 Yeshua tells Jews to "Observe and Do" (continue to follow the laws of Moses.

Question: why do gentile converts reject what Yeshua said and admit they are converted Jews who follow Yeshua?

Do you believe Yeshua lied or mis spoke or tricked others into believing something that was not completely true about the importance of remaining Jewish?

John 14:6 "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no man comes to the father but by me." Those are the words of Jesus. The Bible also says:

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

(Acts 4:12)

In the First Testament, they were saved by grace through faith, just like today. The difference is that they were saved by grace through faith in the Messiah to come. We are saved by grace through faith in the Messiah who has come.

Believing in the Messiah is the most Jewish thing you can do. Believing in the Jewish Messiah does not cause a Jewish person to cease being Jewish.

Amen. Brother in Christ.

[Guest Adonaicole]

Romans 10:12 "For there is no difference between Jew, and Gentile-the same Lord is Lord of all..." In order to be Jewish, you have to reject Christ as savior, by doing this you are rejecting salvation. I am not in any position to judge them, but Yeshua himself said that through Him is the only way to the Father.

Aaron

This is an old post, but I'm new to the forum so I'm responding to it now. I have to disagree where you say, "In order to be Jewish, you have to reject Christ as savior". Jesus and all his disciples were jews...100%.

Abraham believed in God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

David was a man after God's own heart.

I believe that when they died, they went through Jesus...he was the judge. "No one goes to the father, but through me"

[K.L.]

Romans 10:12 "For there is no difference between Jew, and Gentile-the same Lord is Lord of all..." In order to be Jewish, you have to reject Christ as savior, by doing this you are rejecting salvation. I am not in any position to judge them, but Yeshua himself said that through Him is the only way to the Father.

Aaron

This is an old post, but I'm new to the forum so I'm responding to it now. I have to disagree where you say, "In order to be Jewish, you have to reject Christ as savior". Jesus and all his disciples were jews...100%.

Abraham believed in God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

David was a man after God's own heart.

I believe that when they died, they went through Jesus...he was the judge. "No one goes to the father, but through me"

I will agree with you Adonaicole, but I have a strong feeling its not the blood of the flesh he's referring to, but the cultural traditions of Jews.

I personally love the law. Everything about it is perfect. Yeshua explained the Spirit of the Law, the Spirit of Truth. He sent this Spirit to live in us, to also internally guide, instruct, comfort, and convict us. The Spirit of the Father does not wonder from Father, but confirms the Father.

I'm trying to formulate kind words to express my frustration on referring to Jews as all being orthodox. Orthodoxy does not make you a Jew. Blood makes you Jew. A Jew remains a Jew whether Orthodox, Christian, Catholic, or Atheist.

Orthodox Jews can not be saved to be Orthodox. Yes, you must deny Yeshua as the Messiah to become Orthodox. I know Gentiles who fell in love with tradition, and denied Yeshua to follow doctrines made by man, and became Orthodox. So its not just Jews who fall.

Be careful of Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy is a direct line from the Pharisees. They are proud of that. And you can read Yeshua words against them.

K.L.

[SpiritLedEd]

Romans 10:12 "For there is no difference between Jew, and Gentile-the same Lord is Lord of all..." In order to be Jewish, you have to reject Christ as savior, by doing this you are rejecting salvation. I am not in any position to judge them, but Yeshua himself said that through Him is the only way to the Father.

Aaron

This is an old post, but I'm new to the forum so I'm responding to it now. I have to disagree where you say, "In order to be Jewish, you have to reject Christ as savior". Jesus and all his disciples were jews...100%.

Abraham believed in God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

David was a man after God's own heart.

I believe that when they died, they went through Jesus...he was the judge. "No one goes to the father, but through me"

Abraham didn't "believe in God", he believed God (put his faith in Him). There is a big difference between believing IN God and BELIEVING God. "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that - and shudder."(Jas 2:19).

SLE

[Guest Ger_Tzedek]

No one goes to the father except through Yeshua:

Question: If no one goes to the Father except through Yeshua how did Moses and everyone in the First Testament to the Jews,enter the kingdom or G_D, since they died before Yeshua was born?

Rav Shaul is very clear in his letter to the Romans, chapter 11, that "All Israel will be saved." How can that be if they reject the gospel? How can they be part of the elect? "As regards election, they are beloved for the sake of the patriarchs" And don't bother whining. HaShem will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy.

So how is this reconciled with going through Yeshua? After all, He is the only way. Think back to the story of Joseph in Egypt, and how HaShem placed him second only to Pharaoh. When the famine struck, his brothers came before him, and he sustained them, even though they didn't recognize him. In just his way, Yeshua sustains Israel, though many do not recognize him. He is one of us, our brother. He is in every synagogue. The day will come when He will be revealed, when he will say, "It is I!" And then every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess. But until that day, He does sustain and save them.

In John: 4:22 Yeshua says He is a Jew, only Jews know how to Worship and salvation comes from the Jews. Matt: 23:3 Yeshua tells Jews to "Observe and Do" (continue to follow the laws of Moses.

Question: why do gentile converts reject what Yeshua said and admit they are converted Jews who follow Yeshua?

Do you believe Yeshua lied or mis spoke or tricked others into believing something that was not completely true about the importance of remaining Jewish?

Because gentile converts are not converted to Israel. They are converted to Ekklesia, the People of G-d. In Acts, the Council of Jerusalem makes abundantly clear that gentile believers need not become Jews, need not come under covenant.

Throughout Church history, there have been those who have erred to the right, into supersessionism, forcing Jews to become Gentiles, and those who have erred to the left, forcing Gentiles to become Jews. But HaShem has made it clear: He has separated Israel apart from the Nations, even within Ekklesia. The union of Jew and Gentile within Ekklesia in not homogenous. It is a union of differentiation, like that of a man and woman in marriage, just as in the messiah there is no male nor female.

Edited July 7, 2007 by Ger_Tzedek

[Retrobyter]

No one goes to the father except through Yeshua:

Question: If no one goes to the Father except through Yeshua how did Moses and everyone in the First Testament to the Jews,enter the kingdom or G_D, since they died before Yeshua was born?

In John: 4:22 Yeshua says He is a Jew, only Jews know how to Worship and salvation comes from the Jews. Matt: 23:3 Yeshua tells Jews to "Observe and Do" (continue to follow the laws of Moses.

Question: why do gentile converts reject what Yeshua said and admit they are converted Jews who follow Yeshua?

Do you believe Yeshua lied or mis spoke or tricked others into believing something that was not completely true about the importance of remaining Jewish?

Shalom, my brother larrye2001!

I believe the answer to your dilemma is two-fold: First, terminology must be carefully used. The word "Christ," as I'm sure you've heard, is a transliteration of the Greek word "christos" meaning "anointed" or "rubbed" and is a translation of the Hebrew word "mashiach" ("messiah") meaning the same. It is not only possible but very probable that people could accept and trust in the "Mashiach" or "Christ" of prophecy without knowing that His name would be "Yeshua`" or "Ieesous" or "Jesus." Yeshua did not lie nor did He misspeak or trick others.

The second part of your answer is to be found in the term "salvation." While it may generally refer to the justification a person may receive of God, its PRIMARY understanding is to be found in the prophetic passages in which it is found. The word can also be rendered "rescue" or "deliverance," and its PRIMARY understanding is the RESCUE the Messiah provides when He returns (or as the Jews would like to believe, comes the first time). "RESCUE is of the Jews." "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be DELIVERED: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be DELIVERANCE, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call." (Joel 2:32, KJV)

This is somewhat condensed from what all needs to be said; so, I hope you can read between the lines a little and understand where I'm coming from.

Retrobyter

[Fiosh]

No one goes to the father except through Yeshua:

Question: If no one goes to the Father except through Yeshua how did Moses and everyone in the First Testament to the Jews,enter the kingdom or G_D, since they died before Yeshua was born?

Maybe they were given the chance to know and accept Jesus:

I Peter 3:18-20

For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit.

In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison,

who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.

[Guest shiloh357]

No one goes to the father except through Yeshua:

Question: If no one goes to the Father except through Yeshua how did Moses and everyone in the First Testament to the Jews,enter the kingdom or G_D, since they died before Yeshua was born?

Maybe they were given the chance to know and accept Jesus:

I Peter 3:18-20

For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit.

In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison,

who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.

No, because reference here is specifically to the antiediluvians who existed before the flood. It is not talking about preaching to all of humanity.

Anyway, Jesus used a parable to teach that there is an impassible gulf for those in hell that cannot be spanned. Once a person has died, there are no more chances. No Scripture exists that shows a person in hell getting a second chance.

Furthermore, Jewish people did not need to actually know who Jesus was. Abraham was justified by faith but did not actually know the Messiah. His faith was in the Word of God, the same word that Jewish people have had for generations.

In OT times, their faith was directed forward to the Messiah to come. It was their faith in the Messiah to come that saved them. It is incorrect to assume that just because they did not actually see the Messiah that they did not know what the sacrifices pointed to.

We have been taught that the Jewish people were blind to meaning of their sacrifices but that is not true. The problem is that today we tend to judge all Jews according to the blindness and stubborness of the Pharisees, as if the Pharisees were charactistic of Jews en masse, and that would simply be a faulty approach to the issue at hand.

Salvation was by grace through faith in the OT just like it was in the NT.

[ParanoidAndroid]

Hi all,

This seems quite an old thread, but I thought I'd add a few comments, considering it's already been posted in recently

Overall, I think the question has already been answered. Hebrews 11 tells that it was by Faith that Moses, Abraham, David, Enoch, and other Old Testament patriarchs were saved. It was by Faith in God, not by observance of the Law. The Law condemns humanity, because there is no one who can follow it enough to be right with God. Everyone in the Old Testament who would be in heave were saved by their Faith in God, not by their observance of the Law.

Whether Jesus actively ministered to them after death (as some suggest), or whether things worked slightly different before Jesus actually came, I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think the Bible mentions that.

In reference to the John 4:22 passage, I see this as an extension of the promise given to Abraham in Genesis 12:1-3 (and throughout the rest of the Genesis, really). God promises that through Abraham one man will be born who will be a blessing to all Nations. Christians acknowledge that this person was Jesus, who truly is a blessing to the Nations. When John writes that "salvation comes from the Jews" I see this as another fulfillment of the Old Testament promises - the salvation of Jesus, who was a Jew.

That's as how I see it, at least

~ Paranoid Android