Brokeback Mountain Review

[Guest LadyC]

p.s., i hate to leave you in the middle of a discussion, but it's past midnight on my end of the country, and i have to get my husband up and off to work in four hours. so i'll have to pick up this conversation with you later in the day. for now, good night, and i pray that God will make Himself very real to you.

[freshcutgrass]

"I dont see how that is mistranslated. "

Of course you don't, because you don't know what those verses mean, because you don't know what context they are in.

The Greek word "arsenokoites", is formed from two words meaning "male" and "bed". This word is not found anywhere else in the Bible and has not been found anywhere in the contemporary Greek of Paul's time. We do not know what it means. The word is obscure and uncertain. It probably refers to male prostitutes with female customers, which was a common practice in the Roman world.

What you fail to understand, is that the sexual practices eluded to invole idolitry, which was rampant at the time. And this involved mostly heterosexuals obviously. This has absolutely nothing to do with loving, commited, monogomous couples....straight or gay.

Three of the passages: Genesis 19:5; I Corinthians 6:9 and I Timothy 1:10 are incorrectly translated. The other three: Leviticus 18:22; 20:13 and Romans 1:26-27 are taken out of their original setting of condemning idolatrous religious practices and wrongly used to judge and condemn people of the same sex who love each other.

None of these passages refer to people of the same sex who love each other. None originally were aimed at homosexuals. You are simply blindly following homophobic teachings based on the bastardization of scripture. That's why I use the term "some" christians, as I am hardly the only person who feels this way.

[ayin jade]

Im following Gods word. I follow the Lord.

You can try and twist it however you can, but the fact remains that at no time was homosexuality not considered a sin. Nothing you write will change that.

[ayin jade]

Romans 1:26-27 are taken out of their original setting of condemning idolatrous religious practices and wrongly used to judge and condemn people of the same sex who love each other.

Reading the entire passage, there is no way that can refer to what you claim it refers to. You are trying to force scripture to say what you want it to say, to justify your errant beliefs.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

Rom 1:19 because the thing which may be known of God is clearly revealed within them, for God revealed it to them.

Rom 1:20 For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being realized by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse.

Rom 1:21 Because, knowing God, they did not glorify Him as God, neither were thankful. But they became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools

Rom 1:23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man, and birds, and four-footed animals, and creeping things.

Rom 1:24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves.

Rom 1:25 For they changed the truth of God into a lie, and they worshiped and served the created thing more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Rom 1:26 For this cause, God gave them up to dishonorable affections. For even their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature.

Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust toward one another; males with males working out shamefulness, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was fitting for their error.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not think fit to have God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do the things not right,

Rom 1:29 being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; being full of envy, murder, quarrels, deceit, evil habits, becoming whisperers,

Rom 1:30 backbiters, haters of God, insolent, proud, braggarts, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

Rom 1:31 undiscerning, perfidious, without natural affection, unforgiving, unmerciful;

Rom 1:32 who, knowing the righteous order of God, that those practicing such things are worthy of death, not only do them, but have pleasure in those practicing them.

[ayin jade]

There is a far more important question. Who is Jesus to you?

[freshcutgrass]

"their actions ARE unnatural, physically and spiritually, and their actions are condemned by God. "

But you don't seem to be listening...I'm saying they are NOT. And you seem to want to ignore any explanations about it.

"as for your seeking to understand scripture, i have a hard time understanding how your attempting to do any such thing."

Because you choose to believe someon else's homophobic interpretaions blindly...I don't. Scholars spend their lives studying...it's VERY difficult. If some christians want to fob out cherry-picked phrases from the bible they have no clue about, then that's fine. It just isn't informed, obviously, and pretty hypocritical.

"my views represent Godly principal as is spelled out in the Bible. "

Really...what bible is that? My guess is you don't speak Greek or Hebrew, so you blindly rely on whatever interpretaion given by your "minister" and the various translated versions of it out there. Trust me, if christians are running around using Leviticus and the story Sodom and Gomorrah as proof of god's condemnation of homosexuality, then they are clearly totally ignorant. Most biblical scholars would laugh at you for suggesting such a thing.

The bible speaks of homosexual acts only when they are part of sacred prostitution, idolatry, promiscuity, seducing children, rape, or violating hospitality. It condemns all such acts, whether heterosexual, homosexual, or having nothing to do with sex.

All bible references that are used to condemn and destroy homosexuals are taken out of context, translated incorrectly, and used to hurt people not intended in the original setting. Religious, academic, ethical and polemical preoccupation with homosexuality in the bible is a vast wasteland of ignorance and speculation that has darkened the minds of multitudes of people and created pain and death that I'm quite sure god never intended.

And isn't the saddest part of all this, that all this insanity has turned untold multitudes away from god? Take a bow....here's the t-shirt.

Don't bother replying, I can already see I will get the same programed response, and it's getting old. Running around saying things like "praise god" and "have you received jesus as your personal savior yet" is nothing but paying lip service. Maybe you should instead start working on what you are going to say to all those homosexuals you will have to face in the next life.

[Marnie]

Dang, how'd this person (fresh cut grass) get in here???

[ayin jade]

And still the question is ignored. Who is Jesus to you?

[freshcutgrass]

"Reading the entire passage, there is no way that can refer to what you claim it refers to. You are trying to force scripture to say what you want it to say, to justify your errant beliefs."

Excactly what I would expect a robot to reply. First of all, i do not come up with beliefs, and then go looking in scripture to justify it. I am a free thinker with an open mind.

Secondly, with reference to your reply regarding Paul's letter in Romans, you clearly have no concept of who's writing the letter, who it's written to, who it's talking about, or why it was written....let alone the language in which it's written. How you think you are so sure you know what it means completely escapes me.

Paul's writings have been taken out of context and twisted to punish and oppress every identifiable minority in the world: Jews, children, women, blacks, slaves, politicians, divorced people, convicts, pro choice people, lesbians, gays, bisexuals, transsexuals, religious reformers, the mentally ill, and the list could go on and on. Paul is often difficult and confusing to understand. A lot of Paul's writing is very difficult to translate. Since most of his letters were written in response to news from other people, reading Paul can be like listening to one side of a telephone conversation. We know, or think we know, what Paul is saying, but we have to guess what the other side has said. As 2 Peter 3:16-18 pointed out, we have to be on guard against using Paul's writings in unhealthy and destructive ways.

Paul wrote Romans from Corinth, the second largest city in the empire and the crossroads of world trade and culture. Pausanius observed at about the same time as Paul that there were over 1,000 religions in Corinth. The most prominent were the fertility cult of Aphrodite, worship of Apollo, and the Delphi Oracle, which was across the bay from Corinth. Paul's readers would have been aware of the religious climate from which he wrote Romans and would have understood Paul a lot better than we do.

The theme of the first 3 chapters of Romans is expressed in 1:16: "The gospel is the power of God for spiritual freedom (salvation) for all who believe." Paul showed that all people equally need and can have Jesus in their lives. Paul's gospel is inclusive, as expressed in Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, neither slave nor free, neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

Romans 1:26-27 is part of Paul's vigorous denunciation of idolatrous religious worship and rituals. Read all of Romans 1:18 to 2:4 for the context of the verses.

Romans 1:26-27 contains some words used only here by Paul. Familiar words are used here in unusual ways. The passage is very difficult to translate. The argument is directed against some form of idolatry that would have been known to Paul's readers. To us, 2,000 years later and in a totally different culture, the argument is vague and indirect.

Verse 25 is clearly a denunciation of idol worship, "For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature and not the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen."." Paul at no point in his writing dealt with same-sex orientation or the expression of love and affection between two people of the same sex who love each other.

The word "passions" (or "affections" as your translation wants to use) in 1:26 is the same word used to speak of the suffering and death of Jesus in Acts 1:3 and does not mean what we mean by "passion" or "affections" today. Eros is the Greek word for romantic love, but eros is never used even once in the New Testament. "Passions" or "affections" in 1:26 probably refers to the frenzied state of mind that many ancient mystery cults induced in worshipers by means of wine, drugs and music.

We do not know the meaning of "burn" in 1:27, because Paul never used this particular word anywhere else, and it's origin is uncertain. The term "against nature" is also strange here, since exactly the same term is used by Paul in Romans 11:21-24 to speak of God acting "against nature" by including the Gentiles with the Jews in the family of God. "Against nature" was used to speak of something that was not done in the usual way, but did not necessarily mean that something "against nature" was evil, since God also "acted against nature."

on Romans 1:31, where the King James Version translated the Greek word astorgous as "without natural affection." This is one of the characteristics of people "with a reprobate mind" (KJV of 1:28). The word for "reprobate" is more recently translated as "depraved" or "perverted" in order more neatly to fit the sexualizing of everything possible in the list. The literal meaning of "reprobate" (Greek dokimon) is "to fail to measure up" or "to fail to meet the test" and simply means that the list of things that follows is the result of a mind that has abandoned God. The word astorgous, "without natural affection," is used only here and in 2 Timothy 3:3. It has nothing at all to do with homosexuality or with sex. It is the Greek word for "family love" or "family ties" with the negative prefix. It refers to people who despise and reject their family members. Rather than being directed at homosexuals, it is a term that is directed at people who despise and reject their own homosexual children and brothers and sisters!

"And still the question is ignored. Who is Jesus to you? "

Oh...fer crying out loud, that's just an avoidance tactic. Whenever pre-programed religious people run into snags, they always revert to this kind of crap. Who's jesus to me....not the homophobe one you seem worship, that's for sure.

[freshcutgrass]

"Dang, how'd this person (fresh cut grass) get in here??? "

Unless it's just a rhetorical question, then explain yourself (if you can).