Ovedya Posted August 8, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted August 8, 2003 BOTH the faith argument AND the evidential argument give the Big Lie to "atheism." In fact, the Holy Bible adds the word "fool" to the issue. Never hesitate to publicly discuss - or, for that matter, debate - a self-proclaimed "fool" re the existence of Almighty God. Pshaw, "atheism" is ridiculous from start to finish. Repetez apres moi: "Fegettabowit!" God bless America! http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com How did Jesus preach the Gospel to unbelievers? He fed them and cared for their souls....There's something to that: The God of the universe never engaged in intelligent debate or argument over whether or not He existed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted August 8, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.93 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted August 8, 2003 The argument is simple:Â No one can logically argue the statement, "There is no God." No, but I get the converse: "You cannot prove there is a God." Or worse, "I do not have to prove there is no God. The burden of proof is on you." The problem is that she is using the wrong organ. Only the human spirit can receive the Spirit of God. Now, that's the ticket! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted August 8, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted August 8, 2003 The answer to the first is simple, "I don't need to prove something to believe it." Belief is easy enough to prove. A person need not know how the mechanics of a car work believe that it will turn over when he turns the key. He simply believes that the people who made the car knew what they were doing. What about astronomy and astrophysics? Certain scientist believe in scientific theories without ever being able to prove them. Some people cannot believe in anything that they cannot see, touch or feel. BUt rarely do they ever recognize that they already believe in plenty of things like this. Love, for example, cannot be seen, touched or felt (with the external sense of touch), yet no one disputes that love exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Darner Posted August 8, 2003 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 144 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/05/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted August 8, 2003 Thanx for your nice reply. However, I am very anxipous for you to inform me re her specific ANSWER to the rational query I asked earlier Arthur, I wish I could give you word-for-word specifics but I can't seem to remember that precisely. However, from what I've witnessed in her debates/arguements with others her basic reply goes something like this: I'm a decent person so why do I need God if his own people can't be decent therefore they must be making Him up. Perhaps, some background will help. This is what I have written about this in another thread: to the best of my knowledge her family didn't go to church and church-going kids at school teased (or tormented) her about being a heathen. Apparently, she would see these same kids out drinking or other some other ungodly thing. I guess that she felt church (God) didn't really make a difference in people. Mom has always held to strict morals (to "show them!") and I remember growing up in a loving home with high moral standards. She would tell me and my brother that we were better than any Christian (who were all hypocrites in her opinion) and that Jesus was a real man but just a man. Don't get me wrong I had a good childhood with a sweet mom and loving dad but we were not Christians and they were proud of it. It was quite a shock to me when reading the bible for the first time (in 2000) to discover that so much of what I was taught by my parents(morally - what's right and wrong- how to treat others) is "Christian". Unfortunately the most important part was left out - God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit! See - it's not rational, it's an emotional reponse to people whom she views as hypocrites. I really do wish that she could be won over rationally because would be so much easier than overcoming the irrational she needs to know that you are praying for her - even if thinks you're wasting your time. Thanks Godman. I never thought to tell her that I was praying for her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted August 8, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.93 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted August 8, 2003 What about astronomy and astrophysics? Certain scientist believe in scientific theories without ever being able to prove them. You see, here is the problem. "Belief" and "proof" have different connotations and applications in science than they do in everyday life. It is for a lack of understanding this difference that many people develop wacko "theories" and even more people completely get the science wrong in their applications. I've been involved with lots of discussions over this (well, I was more a fly on the wall than a participant, but I still recieved the words). Yes, stone hard "proof" is hard to come by. Even the famous Pythagorean theorum (a^2 + b^2 = c^2) is not "proven." However, there is plenty of evidence that this "theory" is true. (For instance, it has yet to fail!) You see, science is not about "belief" but about what the evidence supports or does not support. To "prove" something in science actually means providing the evidence that supports the claim. Likewise, what the layman calls a theory, the scientist calles a hypothesis. A theory is a claim that has been observed to be true. But to be a valid theory, the claim has to have an element of falsifiability. That is, in the testing, there has to be a means by which one can say, "This claim is false." (If the results go this way, the claim is supported; if the results go this way, the claim is false.) This is why we cannot "prove" God with science. How can you falsify the claim? Sure, you can make claims to observations that indicate the handiwork of God, thus supporting the claim that God exists. But what evidence or test can you perform that if failed will disprove the claim of God's existance? It's like this. You come to a frozen pond and you want to know if the ice is thick enough to support your weight. You develope a hypothesis: "If I throw this large, heavy rock onto the ice and the ice holds firm, then the ice will support my weight." So, you throw this heavy rock onto the ice. If the ice holds, you supported your hyothesis that the ice will hold your weight. If the ice significantly cracks or the rock falls through the ice, your hypothesis is rejected. The ice will not support your weight. (So the hypothesis that the ice will support your weight is falsifiable in that it can be found by evidence to be false.) So, you see how tough and tricky this can get? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted August 9, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted August 9, 2003 Yes, but even science has a certain degree of "faith" to it. Otherwise there would be no science. Remember that the vey first scientists were Christians seeking to discover God's creative works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted August 9, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.93 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted August 9, 2003 Yes, but even science has a certain degree of "faith" to it. OK, I'll bite - what is this "degree of faith?" Just so you understand my question, I've been involved with a science-related Board where this topic came up, and the argument of a belief system or faith existing in science fell flat on its face and was emphatically brushed out the door! I can send you the link if you want to see this debate for yourself. But I'll give you a hint: Science is about "seeing is believing." There is no "believing is seeing" in science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catsmeow Posted August 9, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 439 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 7,315 Content Per Day: 0.93 Reputation: 356 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/21/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted August 9, 2003 Neb: The ONLY way they'll believe is if God lifts the veil of ignorance from their eyes and allows them to see....they live in ignorance and apparently choose ignorance as a lifestyle. I did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catsmeow Posted August 9, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 439 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 7,315 Content Per Day: 0.93 Reputation: 356 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/21/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted August 9, 2003 How did Jesus preach the Gospel to unbelievers? He fed them and cared for their souls....There's something to that: The God of the universe never engaged in intelligent debate or argument over whether or not He existed. God-man: You're on a roll, brother! Another masterful response!...there's no way to improve on...Spoken as the Lord Jesus would have spoken... And the greatest of these is...love.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted August 9, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.93 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted August 9, 2003 Neb: The ONLY way they'll believe is if God lifts the veil of ignorance from their eyes and allows them to see....they live in ignorance and apparently choose ignorance as a lifestyle. I did. Agreed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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